Something Old, Something Debut Episode 58 transcript: Still Life With Tornado by A.S. King part 2
SPEAKERS
GiannaMarie, Annaliese, Ron
CONTENT WARNINGS: This book contains discussions of domestic abuse, child abuse, toxic home relationships, unhealthy marriage, spousal abuse, intimate partner abuse, abusive destruction of property, threat of suicide, possibility of psychosis/delusions, major depression, negative self-talk, existential crisis, suppressed memories, inappropriate teacher-student sexual relationship, bullying and psychological abuse, homelessness and its risks and causes, stalking, child endangerment, accidental self-harm during hypomania, ableist language surrounding mental health, and mention of graphic emergency room scenes.
[INTRO: sound of book pages flipping]
Ron 00:03
Hello, welcome to Something Old, Something Debut, the podcast where we alternate new books and old books we think you should know about. I’m Ron and I use he/they pronouns.
GiannaMarie 00:13
And I’m GiannaMarie, and I use… she/her pro- I’m sorry. [Ron laughing] It’s she/her pronouns. I am so used to Ron’s like, normal intro, that I got a little bit thrown off just now, because I think this is the first recording that we’re doing with Ron changing up some pronouns.
Ron 00:33
Yes, it is.
GiannaMarie 00:35
Let’s keep it in. [laugh] This is -
Ron 00:39
I mean, I was going to draw attention to the fact that they changed. So that works. You did it for me. [laugh]
GiannaMarie 00:47
We’re finishing Still Life with Tornado by A.S. King today. I think the chapter that we started with was right after the fourth day in Mexico, but I don’t know what page that is, cuz I don’t have the book anymore.
Ron 00:59
Yes. So this time — this time it was pages 149 to the end. And the first chapter that we did is titled “Second Chance.”
GiannaMarie 01:09
More on that later, this was a very good book. Um -
Ron 01:12
Yes, it was.
GiannaMarie 01:13
For now, we are recording a bit ahead of time because we are trying to be responsible. Um, so when this comes out, it will… It will be on my mother’s birthday! Um, uh, it will be mid-September. So we will be praying for fall and kind of well entrenched in the semester. So I wanted to know, what is the worst mistake you’ve ever made at the beginning of a semester.
Ron 01:38
Befriending a girl that I later found out was a Trump supporter.
GiannaMarie 01:43
Is that really your fault though?
Ron 01:46
No, it was just a mistake. No, it was funny because I didn’t know she was a Trump supporter yet, but I was still like, “I don’t know this girl is giving me a weird vibe. I’m not going to hang out with her anymore.” And so I made up a stupid excuse for why I didn’t want to hang out with her anymore to my friends who had become friends with her — — because I didn’t have a real reason I would just didn’t want to spend time with her anymore. And then they were like, Why are you being so mean? And then like, a couple weeks later, she was like, yelling at them about how she felt victimized because she was a Trump supporter, and we were all gay and saying, like, hey, that doesn’t make us feel good!
GiannaMarie 02:02
Oops. That’s a baffling story.
Ron 02:22
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 02:22
Okay. I was going to say mine was I once scheduled, like, three two-hour classes in a row on another campus. So I had, like, a morning class and then I had to take a bus over to Smith. And then I had like, five hours of class. [laugh] And I had to drop out of two of those within the first two weeks because I fell asleep in the last class like, two times. And I never fall asleep in class. I never do!
Ron 02:56
Oh, please! I fall asleep in class all the time. It’s fine!
GiannaMarie 02:59
I was deeply upset. Um, especially because you and I just had this whole conversation about how I can’t sleep at night! [mixed laughter]
Ron 03:10
Um, I mean, like, same. [GiannaMarie laughs] Like, I don’t have — I don’t usually have like, super bad insomnia. I used to for a while, but like, I haven’t really since college. But like, I definitely, like, when it’s nighttime, I just get surges of energy because I just like when it’s dark out, and so then I’ll stay up super late, and then I’ll have to wake up super early. So it’s not necessarily that I can’t fall asleep. It’s that like, I can’t find the willpower to try to go to sleep. Instead I just keep doing things. [laugh] Which I guess might be… the hyperactive part of me.
GiannaMarie 03:55
All right, what’s your recommendation?
Ron 03:59
Um, okay. My recommendation question is lame, because I couldn’t think of anything else. But so, lately, obviously, washing your hands is very important. And one of my favorite things about washing your hands at home is that you get to buy fun soap. So my question is, do you have a soap that you would recommend and if so, what is it? Or like, a soap-buying technique you would recommend for like, picking out a good scent.
GiannaMarie 04:38
Ah, Uh huh. Um, I used to get seasonal hand soap from Bath and Body. But as I’ve grown older, I’ve become much more sensitive to scent. Um,
Ron 04:54
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 04:55
I’ve always been pretty sensitive but like, I — I don’t know the last couple of years, it’s been a lot more intense for me. Um, so I haven’t been able to use fun soaps in a while. I mean, aside from my Mermista soap, which is my shower and bath soap, um, I would never waste it on hands. I I think we just have Softsoap? Softsoap milk and honey.
Ron 05:28
Honestly though, I love the scent of just like regular Softsoap. It smells really good. And it’s not like, too over-the-top.
GiannaMarie 05:33
It’s a very faint scent.
Ron 05:35
Yeah. Like — cuz I think a lot of the Bath and Body Works ones. Some of those are like, way too strong. Like, you just pump it once and it’s like, the entire bathroom smells like that for the next five minutes.
GiannaMarie 05:47
I thought you were going to say like, days and I was like yeah, I know, it’s bad. [laugh] Or if the Bath and Body soap like, leaks a little bit and then you’re like, why does everything smell so strongly?
Ron 06:01
But like, I think — so. I really actually like, at — um, actually at like, Joann’s and Michaels they have seasonal soaps that are a lot cheaper than if you go get them from like, a Bath and Body Works or something like that. And sometimes they come in really cute bottles, either because like, they’re just designed to look fancy or like, sometimes they have weird shapes like a snowman or Santa Claus or like, a piece of watermelon or something. So I like those. Um, but the real move — which you can’t really do right now because with how much people are buying soap, I haven’t seen hand soap in a Dollar Tree in so long — but the Dollar Tree has a green apple soap that comes in, like, a massive bottle. So you’re also getting like, a lot of bang for your literal buck. Your one dollar.
GiannaMarie 06:52
Yeah, I thought we get like 16 ounces of Softsoap and then we pour them into the little eight ounce dispensers. [laugh]
Ron 06:59
Yeah. Um, I think the green apple one is about 16 ounces probably. And it smells so good. I love apple-scented stuff. And it’s only a dollar! And it’s also like, it’s decent soap. It’s not like it doesn’t suds up or anything, like, it’s — it does the job. Um -
GiannaMarie 07:20
I’m definitely excited for apples scented things if we ever get to go out of our houses and smell things again, for the coming fall.
Ron 07:28
That’s the other thing, this is the real recommendation I have -
GiannaMarie 07:31
Ooh.
Ron 07:32
- and that is when you’re wearing a mask, if you want to buy soap or a candle, and you want to smell it? But obviously, if you are doing the right thing, you shouldn’t take your mask down to smell it, and you also shouldn’t hold it right up to your mask because that’s basically as bad! What you CAN do, especially with candles, not so much soap — it’s tricky — but like, with a candle, just hold it like, maybe five inches away from your face and just wave it back and forth. And the scent catches on the air. And then you can smell it.
GiannaMarie 08:09
That’s — I was — I, I don’t know why this is the one thing that I’ve really remembered from 10th grade chemistry, but that teacher was always like, if I catch you, like, leaning down to sniff something you’re out in the hallway. That is so unsafe. You WAFT it toward your face. [laugh]
Ron 08:28
Yeah. Yeah. Which — if you try and waft it like how you would waft, like, with your hand over it, that doesn’t really work for a candle that’s not lit. But if you wave the candle back and forth, that generates more, like, air, and gets the scent out a little more. I went candle shopping at the Dollar Tree. The other day. And just figured out that technique.
GiannaMarie 08:46
I despise scented candles because they are…so strong. Sometimes even when they’re not lit, and I have been known to blow out candles in other people’s homes. Like, maybe they won’t notice! Like, I don’t need to bring up how it’s giving me a migraine if it’s just not lit anymore. [laugh] I like, had a panic attack when I came across a scented candle in a — in a dentist’s office. I was like, This is not sanitary! Like, I don’t even know why I thought that but I was just so upset and blew it out and left. [Ron laughing] So, this book took a turn that I wasn’t expecting. You? I’m not necessarily sure if I know what you mean by that. But. I guess I just thought that the dad was like, abusive via — via like, being a dick, not helping out in the house, like, not having any interest in his kids lives, blah, blah, blah. But then it turned out that he actually a monster. Like.
Ron 10:03
Yeah. I mean, but I also think the important note that this book makes which also after I say this, I’ll say the content warnings quick.
GiannaMarie 10:11
Right! Forgot about those!
Ron 10:13
The important note, I think this book makes is that like, there is no kind of abuse that is like, lesser than and like, less worth being upset about. Um, so all of that said, um, I would assume people would probably know the content warnings from last time, but if you don’t, I’ll go over those again. And then there’s also some new ones. So this story is largely about a family where parents should be divorced and aren’t and it is very toxic and bad for everyone involved. The main character has suppressed memories in the first half of the book, well, okay, so there’s pretty clear, like, emotional abuse throughout in the first half there’s a quick scene of physical child abuse against someone who is not a main character. And then into the second half of the book, there is more explicit child abuse, although never really scenes of it. It’s more just talked about, which I think is very, like, well done. And so yeah, that’s physical. Homelessness is addressed. Pretty much like a lot of things about homelessness, like it goes into how people perceive homeless people, how homeless people’s health and mental health may be in danger. Things like that. And also in the second half, I would even say that it specifically gets into something I definitely say there should be a content warning for even though it’s very brief is that a homeless character mentions that the reason he became homeless is because he lost his job and then was unable to afford medical bills. Um, there’s definitely like, fear of being delusional from the part of the main character. And also there’s some like, ableist language around like, craziness and stuff like that. There was like, one really specific part in the second half where someone said something that I was like, ooof! But I don’t remember — Oh, someone says in a derogatory way they call someone “schizo” in the second half. Um…in there’s some self harm via like, getting really into doing art and like, getting so into it that fingers bleed and things like that. A lot of self-destructive behavior and negative self-talk, depression, just like, severe depression. Um, then specifically talking about abuse. We talked about child abuse, but there’s also like, very explicit relationship abuse. The child abuse is never super, super explicit on page I’d say the most graphic scene was actually that one in the first half where it’s all heard and not seen. But there is a very explicit scene of like, relationship violence in the second half. And then there’s also mention of torture. In the second half. Um, not to any of the main characters, but the mom has some POV points and she works in an ER and so she talks about a patient that she got in that was like, literally tortured.
GiannaMarie 13:51
Yeah, she’s — some of the, uh — I would approach the Helen POVs with some caution. The first half, we didn’t mention them, but there was like, a scathing indictment that might — might — should be upsetting about nursing homes. But then there’s graphic intimate partner violence on screen in Helen’s point of view in the second half, and, like, just some really scary stuff she’s seen working the night shift in the ER.
Ron 14:25
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 14:26
Um, I think that might be. There’s one large scene towards the end of the book where the dad just, like, starts trashing things and they have to -
Ron 14:38
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 14:39
- have him arrested.
Ron 14:43
I guess there is also — I would mention as another content warning, there’s mention of suicide. Um, but not really in a context where anyone seriously expects anyone to be in danger, more like someone inappropriately references it.
GiannaMarie 15:01
Yeah.
Ron 15:02
Because, yeah. Yeah. Okay.
GiannaMarie 15:06
Um, yeah, I think that that covers it.
Ron 15:10
Yeah
GiannaMarie 15:10
Thoroughly. [Ron laughs]
Ron 15:14
With what GiannaMarie — what you were talking about before, I would definitely say yeah, I agree that like, I wasn’t totally expecting it to go that way, but I also think that all the stuff we said last time about it being like, “yes, this happens to a lot of people” is still true.
GiannaMarie 15:31
Yes.
Ron 15:32
Um, but um — I thought the thing you were gonna say you were sidelined by is like, because last time you seem to not fully believe all the Sarahs were like, there -
GiannaMarie 15:43
The Sarahs are all real!!
Ron 15:44
And I was like, last time I was like, No, I’m pretty sure they are! Like. [laugh]
GiannaMarie 15:50
I’m still kind of astonished, because I suppose I expected this book to be… just. What is the — what is the genre I’m thinking of, Ron? Realistic fiction.
Ron 16:07
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 16:08
I just thought it was straight realistic fiction, but um, there’s just like, a tiny twist of like, I don’t wanna say magical realism, but kind of.
Ron 16:21
So something that I was thinking about with finishing this book, is like — so basically at the end, as we mentioned, it turns out dad’s actually like, physically abusive, and he just basically, quote, “made a deal” with the mom and with Bruce, the brother who, like left. He made a deal with them at a certain point.
GiannaMarie 16:43
Here’s my question: how could it possibly have been a deal, because he had all the power. How could they have made an exchange of anything?
Ron 16:52
Because what else would they call it? Like they, like — I mean, I don’t think it would be a deal in that it’s like even exchange or anything like that. I think it’s just they called it a deal. You know?
GiannaMarie 17:06
Mm hmm.
Ron 17:07
Um, so he made a deal that like, he wouldn’t physically abuse them anymore.
GiannaMarie 17:13
And that they were all going to lie to Sarah about it.
Ron 17:16
Yeah. And so Sarah, like, wasn’t really — the only memory of abuse that she was really repressing was just the one in Mexico where, as I predicted last time, as was pretty easy to get the gist of from the first half, is that Dad was — physically abusive of Bruce when they were on the Mexico trip. Because [laughing] Bruce threw the wedding rings into the ocean. Which, honestly? Good for him.
GiannaMarie 17:48
That was a bold move. I think that the dad knocked one of his molars out.
Ron 17:56
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 17:56
Which…I can’t even comprehend how hard he must’ve hit him. So also, he, like, has broken their bones on many occasions.
Ron 18:14
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 18:14
Um, like, I think the first time he just shoved a table into Helen’s stomach -
Ron 18:22
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 18:22
- and it broke a couple of her ribs? And — what was it? Sarah asks later, like, Did he ever break any Bruce’s bones and Bruce is like, two times that we know of, but probably more that we don’t. Aaah!
Ron 18:40
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 18:42
Um, what was I going to say? Sarah said some very adroit things about like, all of his nonchalance and shrugging is a trap.
Ron 18:51
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 18:52
Like, it’s provocative so when you get angry at him, he has a reason to — beat the shit out of you?
Ron 19:00
Mm-hmm. So yeah, so basically all this stuff comes to light and Sarah’s, like, literally get a divorce mom, like -
GiannaMarie 19:10
Today.
Ron 19:10
- seriously, what the hell are you doing? And um, eventually it doesn’t happen like, as quick as like, “get a divorce, okay, done!” But like, it does happen pretty quick. And um, then, basically once dad is getting booted, he flips out and he destroys the house. Like, he just breaks a bunch of crap and like, breaks windows, breaks belongings, just yeah. And luckily, nobody gets seriously injured in this. Um, Sarah does end up, like, just getting her wrist grabbed because she kind of goes in there because she’s in a very bad mental state and she is holding her umbrella and he, like, twists out of her hand and like, destroys it brutally. Um, yeah. And Bruce, who, as we know, is like, a guy who deals with at-risk kids has been in situations like this before many times with like, other people’s families, so he knows exactly what to do. And he like, records what the dad does and calls the police and shows the police all the evidence and handles it like a boss.
GiannaMarie 20:32
Yeah, it was — Yeah. Very good for him. He, he, like, basically, as soon as Sarah calls him, he’s like, would you mind if I came to Philadelphia? And she’s like, please come to Philadelphia. And he’s like, cool, I’ll be there tomorrow. Like [laugh], just had a friend cover his shifts. And he’s like, I — I don’t care what I have to call it. Like, if you’re reaching out to me, I know that it’s for real. Yeah, so.
Ron 21:03
And decides to like, take a couple weeks off of work to help his mom get settled with like, not having the dad in the house anymore and stuff. And like, handling what she needs to handle and making sure that Sarah is like, looked after. While mom goes to work and stuff like that.
GiannaMarie 21:20
I think one of the older Sarahs like, handled the school situation. [laughing]
Ron 21:26
Yeah. 40-year-old Sarah called the school -
GiannaMarie 21:30
Yeah!
Ron 21:30
- about the whole teacher thing.
GiannaMarie 21:32
I think that’s the point where I was like, Oh, they have to be real, they’re affecting things outside of where she even is. [laugh]
Ron 21:40
Yeah. So basically like, what I was kind of getting to is like, the Sarahs end up more and more involved as the second half goes on. And — to the point where like, once the big thing with the — with like, deciding to kick out the dad happens, they all come and they’re like yeah, we’re gonna like, help the -
GiannaMarie 22:06
Help move his stuff out. And then they have a celebration dinner. Yeah.
Ron 22:07
Yeah, we’re gonna help move his stuff out! And they’re like, no you’re not, he can do it HIMSELF. [laugh] But — and then they all have like, a celebratory thing together and like, are all like, emotionally supporting each other and everything. And what I think is really cool about this is Sarah is able to look at the other Sarahs and be like, Oh, I care about them so much! And like, I think they’re so great! But like, they’re all her! And so like, her journey of like, going from this person with all this, like, really horrible self-talk and everything at the beginning — which she definitely isn’t like, cured by the end or something — but like, she gets to see literally herself and like, love literally herself, but like, as other people and it makes it like, easier for her to like, see it that way, which I think is very, like, obviously not realistic in that most people never meet like, themselves outside of their body [laugh]. But I do think like, a lot of people find it a lot easier to empathize with themselves if they kind of take a step back and think of like, what if like, this was my sister I was being so mean about? Or something like that. And so like, by the end, they’re like, this happy family and they take like, a photo together. And then eventually — at the end, I’m pretty sure they all like, basically just disappeared, right?
GiannaMarie 23:37
Yeah. I think the Sarahs were there because she needed them.
Ron 23:42
Yeah, but like, it’s so cute!
GiannaMarie 23:46
I don’t know that it was cute to me, but it was definitely like, wholesome and fulfilling.
Ron 23:52
Yeah, like, at the very end like, it’s definitely like, they’re like, a family. Even though they’re most of them are just one person.
GiannaMarie 24:03
Yeah, there’s a part where they’re like, what if we all went out to get waffles now? And she’s like, I wonder how that’s going to look, like, won’t it look insane? But all anyone says is, “what a beautiful family.”
Ron 24:15
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 24:16
And she’s like, yeah, damn right we are! [Ron laughs] And um, I think Bruce might be moving back to Philadelphia.
Ron 24:28
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 24:29
Because they were kind of discussing how he didn’t have any choice but to leave and it was kind of an exile. Um, and he really misses you know, his family but also his home. So he might might return. What was I going to say. There was also a part where I was like, I’m so confused! Because I — it took me so long to accept the Sarahs were real. [Ron laughs] I mean, not real, but like, physically present, I guess. Oh, they invite the 10-year-old Sarah to have dinner with them “as a family!” And the dad is there, and — I don’t remember what he says — and 16-year-old Sarah chokes — and then the — the narration is like, “just to clarify, I’m literally choking, I can’t breathe” [laugh] instead of like, a modifier for said, it’s like, no, [laughing] she has taco in her airway, and they have to like, clear the side of the table so her mom can like, smack her a bunch of times to try to clear the taco. It’s like, not quite Heimlich maneuver territory, but almost. [laughing]
Ron 25:40
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 25:40
I do not remember what he said. But after that, he was like, oh, like looks like you’ve got your drama for the day. And -
Ron 25:48
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 25:48
16-year-old Sarah is starting to boil over.
Ron 25:52
No, the one who chokes is 16-year-old Sarah.
GiannaMarie 25:55
Yeah.
Ron 25:57
Okay. Based on the way you said that, it made it sound like you were saying 10-year-old Sarah was choking.
GiannaMarie 26:03
Oh, no. I — it was 16-year-old Sarah -
Ron 26:06
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 26:06
- and 16-year0old Sarah is… getting angry.
Ron 26:10
Yes. And also, dad even at dinner doesn’t recognize 10-year-old Sarah, as 10-year-old Sarah literally — she lives about her name. She says her name is Katie. But she keeps referencing herself! Like, at 10 years old! And like, things that happened and specific things dad said, and like, literally — Oh, okay. Last time, I mentioned the song “Eleanor Rigby,” and this time, it is a plot point! It’s a song that Sarah plays on the piano! On multiple occasions! Cuz she kind of gets a little bit back into playing piano, like, she hasn’t in a while. And so we see older Sarah play it, and then 10-year-old Sarah plays it later. For the dad, and he doesn’t — nothing. Nothing happens.
GiannaMarie 26:58
Yeah, that’s so — I had to — I only had one day left on my loan. So I had to finish reading right after we were recording, and I — it was before Annaliese had edited. So -
Ron 27:11
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 27:11
- when I got to the chapter titled Eleanor Rigby, I like, just dissolved into laughter and screenshotted it for Annaliese, [laughing] and I was like, Ron didn’t want you to recommend this, but look, it’s literally in the next half! And Annaliese was like -
Ron 27:26
I didn’t say she shouldn’t recommend it. I just said that she probably wouldn’t.
GiannaMarie 27:30
No, you said like, like, I hope Annaliese doesn’t recommend this! Because — I don’t remember why.
Ron 27:38
Um, well, I just meant like, I hope that she doesn’t weirdly think of this song and I, like, steal her thunder.
GiannaMarie 27:44
Oh, well, she sent me back a text that was like, Well, if Ron doesn’t want me to then I won’t! :( And I was like, do it anyway. So we’ll find out later what Annaliese actually did recommend.
Ron 27:58
I also texted Annaliese when I saw it, and Annaliese was like, GiannaMarie texted me about this too! And I was like, This is what happens when the two of us aren’t allowed to talk to each other [GiannaMarie laughing] about the book before we record.
GiannaMarie 28:11
Wait, do you text Annaliese about the books sometimes, too?
Ron 28:15
Yes?
GiannaMarie 28:15
Oh my god. She’s just been collecting this repository of book information before we record for months. [laughing] Because I text her about the books as well.
Ron 28:26
Yeah, I assumed you did. [GiannaMarie laughing] And then there’s just weeks where Annaliese reads with us, and we’re all just pent up, and we can’t talk to anyone.
GiannaMarie 28:35
Yeah. In many ways, the Mexico trip exacerbated many of the problems. Um, just, I mean, aside from all the other things, one of the things was that apparently, um, the dad’s like, what would I call this — a, like, percolating period? In between angry abusive outbursts is about two weeks. But that shrinks, the more he drinks.
Ron 29:06
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 29:07
So he’s just been drinking and drinking, because it’s vacation and he doesn’t actually care about anything going on so he doesn’t need to be sober for any reason. And so the mom stops drinking to try to relax because she’s like, Oh, damn, shit’s about to get real. Something is going to happen. And then the something that happens is he beats the shit out of his son. Um, what was I going to say? I — when they keep seeing 10-year-old Sarah, um, 16-year-old Sarah points out that she’s still healing from an awful sunburn that she got there and that she’s still scared of dad. Before she like, repressed the memory.
Ron 29:52
I have had a sunburn as bad as the one that 10-year-old Sarah gets. [GiannaMarie groaning] Potentially worse, because 10-year-old Sarah doesn’t mention having — or 16-year-old Sarah, I should say, doesn’t mention having any nerve damage. [laughing]
GiannaMarie 30:03
You have nerve damage from — ?!
Ron 30:05
I’ve told you this before.
GiannaMarie 30:07
I am shocked all over again. I don’t remember this at all!
Ron 30:12
What I was wondering — especially if we get to talk to A.S. King — is if she’s ever had a sunburn like that because I think — I mean, I think it’s possible that like, the sunburn is just being like, not overly focused on because so much other stuff is happening. But like, I don’t know. There’s a lot of symptoms that go into a sunburn like that that weren’t really mentioned. Like she definitely talks about being uncomfortable and stuff but like. I don’t know. The levels of discomfort…. I was just like, I know what this is like. And this like — because it describes that she has like, blisters everywhere and everything.
GiannaMarie 30:55
And pain.
Ron 30:56
I know how bad your sunburn has to be for that to be the case. It seems like you’re — you don’t have enough symptoms. Which could totally be like, you’re too stressed out to really notice your symptoms, or for them to be important to the novel. But for me, a severe sunburn -
GiannaMarie 31:12
Survivor?
Ron 31:13
- survivor, I was just like, What about the itchiness though? And like, what about just like…. How, like, horribly, horribly, horribly dehydrated, she must be, like, because they say that she isn’t, like, that she’s surprised — her mom says that she’s less dehydrated than she feared. But like, when you’re recovering from a sunburn like that, like, you just need to constantly hydrate the whole time.
GiannaMarie 31:44
I definitely got the impression that it was like, like, maybe she’s so high on adrenaline, fight or flight, like everyone is so preoccupied with trying to survive the domestic abuse -
Ron 31:57
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 31:57
- that her body doesn’t even have the luxury to have a lot of these symptoms.
Ron 32:02
Yeah. But she’s like, also talking about like, I want to go bungee jumping! And it’s like, You would be terrified of those straps. I mean, I get she’s a little kid.
GiannaMarie 32:14
She’s 10.
Ron 32:16
But like, still.
GiannaMarie 32:18
That’s not. That’s not that little. I definitely had a comprehensive understanding of what could harm my body at the age of 10.
Ron 32:28
Yeah. So, yeah, also like… her mom, which, I guess this is just her mom not wanting to worry about it. Her mom’s like — she’s like, Am I gonna get cancer? And her mom’s like, No, this isn’t the type of sunburn that will give you cancer. And I’m like, Okay, she’s definitely not going to get cancer like, tomorrow. But this is exactly the type of sunburn that gives you a higher risk of getting skin cancer later in life. Because literally -
GiannaMarie 32:59
We did not need to have that in that situation though, you do not need to add to that vacation. [laugh]
Ron 33:07
No, definitely. But like, her mom’s a nurse and she’s just like, No, honey. No. And I’m like, Yes. You need to get screened regularly when you’re older. Because when I went to the hospital for a sunburn like that, that is exactly what the doctor said to me. He was like, you know, when you’re around 25 you should start getting regularly checked for skin cancer. And I was like, cool, cool, dude. But also, PSA. Skin cancer, like melanoma, doesn’t run in the family. Pale skin and likelihood to get it runs in the family.
GiannaMarie 33:48
Good to know. Something that I did really enjoy about, um, about the second half of this book, which I mean, I’m finding it a little bit difficult to talk about because I read it a little bit ago because I only had it for that one day left. Um, and also it was 4am and I can’t remember a lot. But, uh, also, it was just kind of, like, we already talked about so many of the details and the first half, the second half was more like, we’re just digging deeper into these different situations to uncover, like, lost memories. And um, like, recover feelings that you deserve to have. Um, and something that actually did happen in real time was when she did see Bruce in person.
Ron 34:41
Yes.
GiannaMarie 34:42
And they were like, Oh my god, we’re strangers. And she’s like, I really wish that we didn’t have to do this in person, it would have been so much easier to just do it over the voicemail. [laughs] And then, like, as a kind of distancing tool, the two of them pretend to keep leaving each other voicemails during the entire conversation. So they like, pick up the phone, like, and do the little hand phones. And it’s like, Hi, Sarah -
Ron 35:06
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 35:06
- it’s Bruce, and then give like, a twenty-second talk, like, Hope to talk to you soon! And then Sarah picks up the phone. Hey, Bruce it’s Sarah, and asks a question about what he just said. And then, like after they’re finished eating later, he’s like, Oh, I’m so full. I’m too tired to lift up my hand and pretend to be on the voicemail. Could we just talk like regular people? [laughing] But I just, I loved that so much, because it was super like realistic and goofy and also like, you can see, like, he was doing everything he could to make her comfortable. And I’m like, Ooh, this is an excellent example of bringing some things that you’ve learned as a professional into your home life.
Ron 35:48
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 35:49
Like making abused kids feel safe to talk about their feelings and ask questions they need to ask. And it didn’t feel patronizing at all, like, that was how they were both comfortable and like, I don’t know, they have such a gooey, gooey sibling-ship and I adore it.
Ron 36:10
Mhm.
GiannaMarie 36:11
There was a part where, um, she reminisced about how he gave her four milkshakes one time he babysat her, and let her stay up until 11pm. And two milkshakes were vanilla and two milkshakes were chocolate, I’m like, Where did you get all these? Did you make them? Like, if so, like, nice job, dude. You went through an entire gallon of ice cream.
Ron 36:37
A gallon? No.
GiannaMarie 36:39
Depends on the size of the milkshakes.
Ron 36:41
Like two quarts. I would say two quarts. Another thing in this part, one of the very first chapters in this part is Restructuring. Which was a chapter about how Chet’s job is restructuring. And so they sent him to work from home, except we find out at the end that actually they fired him. And he made this up because he’s too emotionally stunted and insecure to tell his own family that he was fired.
GiannaMarie 37:16
I think I think it’s clear that his family was abusive, when um, when he was a child, and this is just how he thinks that you behave. And I -
Ron 37:27
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 37:27
- and he had this — they had like, the honeymoon period at first, and then it got bad because he like… was very… possessive and jealous and just would lean into his anger when he felt those things very irrationally. Perhaps because he perceived immediately that Helen was way better than him and was afraid she was going to leave, which, valid. Behavior to those fears? Not valid.
Ron 38:05
Yeah, I think this book does a very good job of navigating, like, various different people with really bad mental health issues, but that… some of those people are terrible people. And it’s okay to say that they’re terrible people and that like, the people they’ve hurt should never forgive them. And then other people, it’s like you have mental — it’s like, you have mental health issues. Whether or not you are a good person is separate of those, even if your mental health issues do like, magnify, like, parts of you being a bad person, or like… like, if you have bad mental health issues, and you’re a bad person, then it might cause you to do really exaggerated bad things. But those two things are just interacting with each other. They’re not like, actually, like, related to each other.
GiannaMarie 39:07
Can I stop you here for a second? Are you trying to say that mental illness does not make you a bad person?
Ron 39:14
Yes, but I’m also saying that there are people — because I think -
GiannaMarie 39:18
There are bad people who have mental illnesses?
Ron 39:19
- that’s something that’s addressed a lot, and yeah I think this book does a good job of showing that there are horrible people who are seriously mentally ill and could use help, but that doesn’t change the fact that they’re horrible people.
GiannaMarie 39:31
Yes, I think it’s very clear that the father and Sarah both have severe depression.
Ron 39:39
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 39:39
Um, but -
Ron 39:41
And the mom is definitely messed up too.
GiannaMarie 39:45
Yeah, I don’t know if I would casually diagnose her with anything but um -
Ron 39:51
Like, I wouldn’t diagnose her with anything, but it’s very clear that she should see a therapist.
GiannaMarie 39:57
Yeah. Just from living. Surviving in that environment. Um….
Ron 40:05
But I just think a lot of, like, things that address like, the nuance of mental health are doing it from the perspective of: We’re trying to show that like, people with mental health issues just need to be understood. Like, and sometimes some things push it to the extent of like, Oh, you should understand this person who’s done like, these terrible, terrible things, and you should like, empathize with them.
GiannaMarie 40:32
Mm-hmm.
Ron 40:32
Whereas this is much better, like, I think, at showing what some things ignore, which is that like, yes, it’s true. This person, like, needs help. And like, this person is like, mentally ill, but that doesn’t mean any of their actions should be forgiven.
GiannaMarie 40:52
Yeah, I’m trying to think, but… I think that that was… like, we talked so thoroughly about. I guess the premise and a lot of things that were going on in this book? That really the entire second half was just like, more feelings?
Ron 41:09
Um, well, something we didn’t mention at all is that it turns out that Helen, the mom, knows, Earl the homeless man.
GiannaMarie 41:17
Oh yeah, he’s a regular in the ER.
Ron 41:20
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 41:23
So they get to chattin’ in at the end.
Ron 41:25
And then he’s like, Hey, kid, I missed you. You were following me around before! [laughs] And her mom’s like, What? You were following him around?
GiannaMarie 41:35
[sighs]
Ron 41:38
And then she’s like, You’re art!
GiannaMarie 41:42
Yeah, she definitely has some more positive views on the meaninglessness of life and the world and art and her place in everything by the end.
Ron 41:54
Yeah. Um, so her… like, so basically what he said to her is that he sees art as being like, the truth, like trying to show the truth through, like, your expression of like, how you do art. And so that, like, ends up resonating with her a lot. And then she kind of starts seeing like, everything is art. Like, even things that, like, may not appear actually artistic. Like she’s like, Ooh, this is art. All of this is art. And… I don’t know, I don’t know what I was trying to say there but I think it’s cool because… yeah.
GiannaMarie 42:43
Oh, I also wanted to say, it took her a really long time but she did open up to Bruce about why she left school, which wasn’t because, um… it — it would — it was because her teach Miss Smith, the pedophile, like, encouraged the destruction of her project. Um, and then everyone really, like shunned her and she was completely isolated. So she keeps like talking down to herself. The, maybe like, the first three-quarters of the book like, oh, it wasn’t important. It wasn’t a big deal. And Bruce is like, If you are in this state, and you had to leave school because of it, then it’s a big deal. Like, tell me about it. I’m not gonna be here to judge you. Like I literally flew across the country to just be here and hug you. Like, whatever you need.
Ron 43:41
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 43:42
Oh, also, you were definitely right that it was the dad who said that he had like, joined a cult. Um, because Sarah makes some kind of mention of it. And the mom is like, Whaaat? Like, she had no idea that that was the — the lie that had been spread.
Ron 44:03
Yeah. Oh, also another thing we found out is that, oh, one of the content warnings I forgot to say which I did say last time is just that like, there’s an inappropriate age gap relationship -
GiannaMarie 44:16
Yes.
Ron 44:16
- pedophilia situation going on. Um, and so this also kind of tying into the content warning of just pedophilia being a thing that is mentioned and addressed to a certain extent in this book, is that basically, the quote unquote “Deal” was that — part of it, was that Dad was like, if y’all don’t do what I want, I’m going to basically tell the police that Bruce is a sexual predator to Sarah. Which at the end, he starts trying to do and ever anyone in the room is just like, No, that’s not true.
GiannaMarie 45:02
Yeah, there’s ample proof that he is a liar, and that he is the person who’s hurting everyone.
Ron 45:10
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 45:11
Um, which is about the point where suicide is addressed, because they’re, they called the police and the police are prepared to take him to stay someplace. And he’s basically suggests suicide by cop. He’s like -
Ron 45:28
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 45:28
- If I don’t have my family to beat up anymore, what’s the point of MY life? And they’re like, Aw, you don’t mean that, and the mom, the nurse, is like, You have to arrest him now. Because this is going to be a nightmare if — if something, if anything happens. Now go take him to the psychiatric facility now -
Ron 45:48
Yeah. Or if anyone finds out that he said that because, like, when someone says something like that you’re supposed to do certain things according to protocol.
GiannaMarie 45:55
Yeah.
Ron 45:56
So she’s like, You have to — you have to either take him to get screened or take him to the ER. So they take care of it. So….
GiannaMarie 46:06
I don’t think he really saw that being his ticket out of that situation. [laughing]
Ron 46:12
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 46:14
I think he perceived it as more of a power play like, oh, surely someone will step in and say that my life matters. But no one did. [laughing] They were just like, we have to take you to psychiatric facility now because it’s gonna be really bad paperwork if you do something awful later, and we didn’t do anything now. We don’t care about you because you’re awful. And that’s about where we left it, which was Sarah’s in a much better place. They had a happy family with four Sarahs for a little bit.
Ron 46:46
And it seems like Sarah is willing to do summer school. She’s like, Ugh, summer school, but she’s like, Ugh, fine.
GiannaMarie 46:53
Now that she’s doing better, and I also think now that 40-year-old-Sarah has done whatever she did when she called the school -
Ron 47:04
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 47:05
Like, it might be a safer place for her to return to.
Ron 47:08
Also we find out that um, assuming all the Sarahs are like…
GiannaMarie 47:15
From the same timeline?
Ron 47:17
Yeah, and that we can actually trust everything they say to be true, in that, like, because she says towards the end, like, I wonder if the Sarahs are like, how my future will really be or just like, how I wanted to hear my future would be or like, what I needed to see, basically? So, but the Sarahs say that she’s going to be best friends with Carmen, like, for the rest of her life. And that like, they’ll lose touch for a little bit, but ultimately they end up being close. So that’s nice to hear.
GiannaMarie 47:49
Yeah.
Ron 47:49
But I also… I don’t know, like, I feel like if I was Bruce — who would theoretically tell Helen — if I was either of them, knowing the situation I might be like, hey, Sarah, do you want to maybe like, go to a new school in this area, like transfer to a different school?
GiannaMarie 48:07
Yeah.
Ron 48:08
Because like, the bullying is pretty bad.
GiannaMarie 48:12
I think that the class that did that was mostly seniors. But still, I definitely was like, I don’t — I wonder why they don’t suggest going to a different public school.
Ron 48:26
Yeah. I think really, though, the only thing that’s so addressed is like the fact that she needs to take summer school, they don’t really talk about what the next school year would be like.
GiannaMarie 48:35
I think now they’ve handled — now that they’ve got their own house in order -
Ron 48:40
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 48:40
- things are much more approachable.
Ron 48:44
Yeah. But also, like, the teacher at least will definitely be gone because the teacher got reported.
GiannaMarie 48:53
I hope she’s gone. Because -
Ron 48:56
Who knows how different the school is.
GiannaMarie 48:58
- 40-year-old Sarah says that Vicky is not the first and she won’t be the last. So… she might not be gone.
Ron 49:09
That doesn’t mean students necessarily though. Like the teacher could get fired and still be a predator.
GiannaMarie 49:15
That’s true. I — what was I going to say? I never, I only made it through one season of Riverdale, but like I was definitely getting Miss Grundy — I’m so sad that they they did Miss Grundy way back so dirty — — because she’s such an awesome character. Um -
Ron 49:32
Yeah. Yeah, I wish they just made that character like, a new character that they made up.
GiannaMarie 49:42
Technically she is, because she’s murdered in like, the second episode of the second season, which is when I was like, Another murderer? I’m done. Um -
Ron 49:51
[laughs]
GiannaMarie 49:52
So they find out that she had — that the real Geraldine Grundy was an old woman who looked like she does in the comics, and she dies and she stole her identity.
Ron 50:00
Oh yeah, I forgot about that!
GiannaMarie 50:02
Um, so she like, wasn’t — but she’s — she was a predator and like, when she left the school, like, there’s a very frightening scene of her wearing, like, those heart shaped sunglasses from the commercials. And like, suggestively slipping out of a straw while watching teenage boys wearing very little clothes. And that was just the whole vibe I got off Miss Smith this entire book.
Ron 50:29
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 50:31
Um…. What about recommendations? we already recommended Speak by Laurie Halse Anderson, a lot.
Ron 50:41
So as far as this kind of the examination of art in this book, I would recommend just like… Lynda Barry, the human being, just Lynda Barry. She is like, one of the most amazing people I have ever met. She actually won a Genius award, which is so cool. Um, and she is a comic artist, and basically what she’s really interested in — because she also teaches — what she’s really interested in is basically like… how people get the idea in their head that like, art needs to be stylized and like, takes talent, as opposed to like, art is something I enjoy doing and I’m just going to do it because it’s fun and makes me feel good.
GiannaMarie 51:32
Mm-hmm.
Ron 51:32
And so she has, I guess, two of her books that would kind of fit into this with like, art and writing the most — because she does comics, so she does art and writing — would be Making Comics and What It Is, which — Making Comics is about comic art, and then What It Is is about, like, writing — and basically what she talks about is, like, little kids love to draw and then at one point like, like the like, probably you could- it would be safe to say the majority of little kids draw and do coloring books and stuff at some point. And then as they get older, like, obviously the majority of adults, you could not say that about.
GiannaMarie 52:18
Yeah.
Ron 52:18
And then it’s like, At what point do you decide that you can’t do art anymore because you don’t have specific talent for it. And the same thing is true with like, little kids will sing and dance without caring at all. And like, at what point do we as adults decide that we can’t do that? And she actually has, I don’t know if she still does it. I don’t know if she only did it for like a bit or something. But she would pair, like, grad students up with, like, preschoolers or kindergarteners. And the grad student had to basically learn to draw from the kindergartner. And like, you’re not allowed to try and like, do adult stylistic things, like, you have to use like, the kind of things that kids used to draw, where like, like, the… like, the bodies will just be like, big circles. And then the arms will just be like lumps and stuff like that. And like, you have to put the energy into it to really get like, the energy you get from kids drawings. You can’t like, be slow about it, you have to kind of like, do the kid motions to get the kid drawing. And like, she basically would show examples and be like, you don’t see a kid’s drawing and think, Oh, that’s bad, that’s not art. You see a kid’s drawing and you’re like, Oh, what’s going on in this drawing, or something like that. Because like, you know it’s a kid’s drawing, and you’re just interested in like, what it is. And like, if you see drawings of like, this was like, a really good example that she gave that’s like, it like, hits hard. She gave examples of like, she did a workshop with child soldiers who had like, been able to escape the situation of being child soldiers, but did kind of like, art therapy, and they would draw their experience. And when you see those, you’re never going to think, Oh, that’s not art. Like, that’s not what you’re thinking about. You’re thinking about the message that it gives and like, what you can learn from it and like, the emotion in it, you’re not like, [snooty voice] Oh, the lines here could have been better, [normal voice] or something like that, like, and so it’s, at what point do we decide that like, art gets its value from skill instead of from, like, what it’s doing? And she’s just so cool. Like, she’s just…. I got to hang out with her a couple times within the space of like, two days and I miss her very frequently. That’s how cool she is.
GiannaMarie 54:54
When did you meet her?
Ron 54:56
She visited our school -
GiannaMarie 54:57
Ohhh!
Ron 54:57
- and did a workshop, and then it was our English banquet the next day and she wasn’t flying out ‘till later. So she just came to our English banquet, and like, hung out with everybody. It was so fun.
GiannaMarie 55:09
That’s really cool. I don’t have a human being to recommend….
Ron 55:17
[laughs]
GiannaMarie 55:18
I definitely recommend North of Beautiful by Justina Chen Ha-. Nope, just Justina Chen. Um, which is like, has more of the first half vibes of like, not physically abusive, but like, how you are surviving in that kind of environment. It’s one of my longtime favorites. But as far as something that’s about, like trauma and abuse with an edge of something weird, I definitely recommend um, Never Contented Things by Sarah Porter. Ah, which is just so, like, eerie and scary and, like, heart-wrenching and it’s so good. Just like, pretty much all of her books, but that one in particular for this, I think.
Ron 56:21
Yeah, I think we could also probably pretty safely recommend When I Cast Your Shadow.
GiannaMarie 56:27
Yeah.
Ron 56:28
Because that one — we read that one on the podcast for anyone who is not aware, and that’s about very much like, throwing in definitely some like, like supernatural things. Um, but it’s very much about like, the way that your family dynamics can end up traumatizing you and like, figuring out -
GiannaMarie 56:59
Actually, even further, we’ll just add another Sarah Porter book, which is Vassa in the Night. Um, which was also like, all about using… just, using really weird stuff like urban fantasy, weird stuff to like dig into childhood trauma and family dynamics.
Ron 57:24
Yes. I would also definitely just recommend, I’ve mentioned this kind of last time is like this is not an unusual book for A.S. King. Like, her books do cool stuff like this. And I’m trying to think, what’s it called? I think it’s called Glory O’Brien’s History of the Future? Is a book by A.S. King that like I would say also has kind of like a fragmented weird like, What supernatural stuff is going on here? Type thing. And like, dealing with like, Life. I haven’t read it in a long time. There’s something about a bat and a jar. And like, eating it.
GiannaMarie 58:09
[concerned] Oh…
Ron 58:10
And then seeing the future? Or something like that.
GiannaMarie 58:18
All right, there we go. All set.
Ron 58:22
[laughs]
GiannaMarie 58:27
Uh… yeah, I think… I think we might be… might be good then. Yep.
Ron 58:32
Also, something we’ll probably announce in the next two episodes as well. But something I’m just going to make sure I say now in case we forget to mention it in the next two episodes. So this is Episode 58 of Season One of our podcast, and the next book we’re doing will be episodes 59 and 60. And then after Episode 60, we’re going to officially declare Season Two and our format will be changing. And that’s why we decided to call it a new Season, because we’re going to do- for every one older book that we read, we’re going to actually do two newer books, which is basically a decision that we made because every single time we’ve had to blacklist a book, it’s been because it was an old book that’s just not up to date enough for us to be comfortable promoting its representation, really. So basically, just doing this gives us more time to find old books that we like, feel really strongly about. Because we found it a lot easier to find information about newer books, because just, newer stuff is more online, it’s a lot easier to find things without actually reading the book. Because obviously we don’t talk about books that we’ve, like, read before we’re reading them for the podcast. So it’s a lot easier to just like, find stuff on newer books to be like, hey, what are all the content warnings for this or something like that. So we know if there’s going to be anything problematic, but with the older books, we have to basically read them to find out. So if we’re reading them a little bit further in advance and we have less of them to get through, we can take more time to make sure that every time we pick one we’re picking one we feel good about instead of what happened last time. We had to cancel a book which is like, we basically found this book that everything we could find about it online, which was not much, was really great. And then we read it and found out it was like extremely transphobic and terrible. So yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:00:25
We are hoping to have a theme song when Season Two happens. So anyone with theme song experience — tell us.
Ron 1:00:46
Yeah. I keep being like, Oh God, I need to do that like, now, and I remember Oh, wait, no, that won’t need to be done ‘till like, October.
GiannaMarie 1:00:53
Broadcast over.
Ron 1:00:57
Yay. [laughs]
Annaliese 1:01:00
Hello everyone, thank you for listening to this week’s episode of Something Old, Something Debut, I hope you enjoyed it! If you would like to contact us on social media, our Tumblr is @somethingoldsomethingdebut, our Instagram is @some_old_some_debut, and our Twitter is @debutold. The song that I would like to recommend to you guys this week is in fact “Eleanor Rigby” by The Beatles. And as always, that song will be added to our Music Recs playlist on Spotify, which you can find by going to our social media and clicking the link in our bio. Also, we now have transcripts available if you would like to read a transcript of this, or any episode, they will be available on Medium which you can also find by clicking the link in any of our social media bios. That’s it for this week, stay safe and healthy, and we’ll see you next week for a new episode. Bye!
