Something Old, Something Debut Episode Transcript: A KIND OF SPARK by Elle McNicoll

SPEAKERS

GiannaMarie , Annaliese, Ron

[guitar intro, book pages flipping]

CONTENT WARNINGS: Ableism, flashback of forcible restraint of autistic child during meltdown, academic ableism, ableist bullying, abuse from teachers, offensive language, on-page usage of the R-slur, ableist gaslighting, mention of forced institutionalization, fear of forced institutionalization, self-hatred, masking and its damage, burnout, meltdowns, discussion of execution and torture, witch trials rooted in ableism, rejection sensitive dysphoria, sensory and emotional overload.

Ron 00:10

Hello, welcome to Something Old, Something Debut, the podcast where we discuss new books and old books that we think you should know about. I’m Ron, and I use he and they pronouns.

GiannaMarie 00:21

And I’m GiannaMarie and I use she/her pronouns. And for April which is Autism Acceptance Month, we are reading A Kind of Spark by Elle McNicoll, which is an autistic book by a neurodivergent author ~

Ron 00:25

And I was just really tempted to like, hold it up and show it in our video chat. But this is an audio medium, so that would have done nothing for anyone.

GiannaMarie 00:46

Except me.

Ron 00:47

[laugh] Um, but first, before we get into talking about the book, we do have our just kinda, you know, warm up questions that we do here. So. Do you want to go first? Or do you want me to go first.

GiannaMarie 01:06

You can go first.

Ron 01:07

Okay, so my question is, this is a book for anyone who has not gotten to read it yet. Where there is a absolutely horrible teacher figure that I want to shoot out of a cannon. But there are also some, I literally wrote that in my notes, by the way, there are some amazing, like, teacher, or like, school professional worker…people, like, librarians are teachers, but I understand some people don’t understand that. So. But anyway, um, so there’s some really great ones. So like, we’re going to focus just on the good. Um, so who’s a educational figure from your K through 12 experience? Who was was good.

GiannaMarie 02:02

We literally had an outtake of this. And I was like, I can’t think of anything, I went to Christian fundamentalist school for seven years! [both laughing] Um, so we’re gonna rewind all the way back to kindergarten. My bus driver for kindergarten, first grade, when I lived in upstate New York was like, an angel. Because my parents were so worried about sending me like, alone to school, I was four, when I started kindergarten. And I was the only person that they like, that actually wore a seatbelt on the bus. Like, because I was a rule follower. And it was one of my parents rules. But this guy was super compassionate and like, really, like, was okay with how very protective my parents were, like, my dad wanted, like, they wanted me to be able to have the school bus experience, but my dad, like, drove behind the bus to make sure that everything was okay, every day. Um, but this man was just like, super nice and like, had jazz on for us all the time. And like, actually put the heat on in the bus, which was very nice when it was like, negative 20 degrees. And sometimes we saw him bowling with his friends. He was a very old man and a very kind man. And probably like, all like the all around best candidate from my K through 12 years.

Ron 03:31

So, oddly enough, okay, so I don’t know if you ever had the thing where like, when you’re in like, K through five, when you still have like one teacher all the time, but occasionally, your teacher might like send you to another class.

GiannaMarie 03:48

For specials.

Ron 03:51

No, I mean, like, your whole class goes to another teacher for like one subject, because your teacher doesn’t want to teach that subject.

GiannaMarie 03:59

Oh!

Ron 04:00

Did you ever have that happen? [laughing] Our teacher would send us to another teacher for math. And then she would teach, I think, social studies to that teacher’s class. So they’d just like swap classes.

GiannaMarie 04:13

No, I never -

Ron 04:14

For like, one — just for one lesson. So um, I’m mentioning the teacher we swap to because actually, she was like, one of the most horrible teachers I’ve ever had. Which is funny because at the same time, I also had one of the best teachers I ever had. Like, I’ve actually had quite a few teachers that I’ve really loved. But focusing on like, K through five when you just have like, one teacher you stay with all day. I think my favorite one was Mrs. Rayberg, who was my fifth grade teacher. And that class is actually where I became like, solidly best friends with Mary, who is still one of my best friends to this day for anyone who doesn’t know. But Mrs. Reyberg was just like the type of teacher where like, everyone feels like she is their mom. And like, she deals with each student in like, whatever way is best for them and is like, okay, sweetie, I understand. And she had a couch in her classroom. So we could sit on the couch when there was like, more free time or like, if a student wasn’t feeling well, she’d let them go lay on the couch. And we’d do storytime. And everyone would like, take turns, who gets to sit on the couch for the storytime and everyone else would like, sit on the carpet. And I remember like, she would get so into the books when she was reading them out loud sometimes that she would just stop reading out loud so she could quickly like, skim ahead [laugh] because she was excited. And everyone would be like, come on, we want to know what happens too!! And she’d be like, okay, okay, okay! [laughing]

GiannaMarie 05:55

Um, you know, now that I’m thinking of it, I actually had a really good 10th grade English teacher. That was my first real like, English class, like, class about how to read literature, like, in a literary way, class, that wasn’t bullshit. It was her first time teaching our age group, because she had taught freshmen comp in college. And she had then more recently been working with preschoolers. So she was like, definitely treated us like we were college students. Like, there was a lot of respect from her. And, like, she did a little book club. And like, I would take a lot of medicine to go to her house because she had a cat. But like, we were, we were friends while I was still there. It was — that was, that was one of the experiences that looking back on, is actually not…scary. [both laughing] Um.

Ron 06:55

Yay!

GiannaMarie 06:59

She was — she was good to me. And um, definitely like, I thought I was going to be an English major after I left her class. And then I realized I could not.

Ron 07:10

I also just, like, a shout out to my middle school librarian whose name I unfortunately cannot remember.

GiannaMarie 07:19

Shame.

Ron 07:19

And I’ve tried looking it up. But I don’t know if she’s still even the librarian at that school, because she was like, she’d been there for a really long time when I was there. So there’s a chance she’s retired since then. But like, I credit her with the reason I decided, hey, I want to be a librarian. And look at me here I am!

GiannaMarie 07:38

In librarian school, waiting for a callback on your librarian job.

Ron 07:44

Yeah, let’s not talk about that.

GiannaMarie 07:46

Okay.

Ron 07:47

Let’s not, let’s not worry about that. [laugh]

GiannaMarie 07:51

All right. My question is much more fun. Um, so we both ordered this book from the Book Depository. What was on your — so, the Book Depository is tragically part of Amazon, but they have really fun bookmarks. So what was on your bookmark?

Ron 08:08

Okay. So I found it, and it’s a comic, the first panel — the first two panels are a delivery guy. And he’s like, congratulations, it’s a book! And then the two people receiving the book are like, “thank you, she’s perfect!” “Support the spine, darling!”

GiannaMarie 08:31

[overcome] I remember this now! That’s the best one. Mine is — mine is part of a set it’s “problems only readers have” number one by Olaf Falafel. And it’s three panels and it’s a woman talking to a book open on a table. “You talk out loud to the characters of your favorite books.” So she says, “I’m just off to the shops, Gandalf. You want anything?” “I’m back! Tell Gollum I’ve got those donuts he likes.” [both laughing] “Support the spine, darling,” is on another level. That is…I…I…

Ron 09:17

I hope I find it, I don’t know what happened to it though. My physical bookmark. I do have this whole huge stack of bookmarks though.

GiannaMarie 09:24

I have never in my life wanted to join TikTok, but now I wanna join TikTok to like, act out that bookmark. You have a lot of bookmarks.

Ron 09:37

Yes, I do.

GiannaMarie 09:39

That’s not even, like, that many, but still I’m impressed. I lose bookmarks —

Ron 09:43

Yeah, I also — lose many —

GiannaMarie 09:45

— instantly, which I have to use sticky notes because, get this — they’re sticky.

Ron 09:51

A bookmark will usually last me one read through of a book and then I’ll lose it, either for a little bit or forever. But ever since I started keeping all my bookmarks in like, a little cup on my bookcase, it’s been a little bit easier for me not to lose them.

GiannaMarie 10:08

Mm.

Ron 10:10

Anyway —

GiannaMarie 10:11

All right, I have — I have two questions to ease us into this. First…

Ron 10:17

You just froze.

GiannaMarie 10:19

Okay, first…how do we feel about the um, the cover, the book cover and the book content? [laugh]

Ron 10:33

Like, how they compare to each other?

GiannaMarie 10:36

Like…Sure, sure.

Ron 10:42

Um, okay, so first of all, just talking about this book cover design, I really like it, like just the design on its own, not considering anything else. It’s really cute. Also, like, after reading the book, I look back and I’m like, oh, there’s sharks and a book and like a tree, and some witchy stuff. I’m like, cool. Also, I didn’t know until I actually had the physical copy, because I couldn’t really tell from looking online, but like, the lettering is like shiny gold, and that makes me very excited.

GiannaMarie 11:09

It’s reflecting in your glasses.

Ron 11:11

[laughter] Um, but I will definitely say it is not what I expected from the cover. Like, the cover is very bright and colorful and shiny. And also the like, description on the back —

GiannaMarie 11:29

Oh, I forgot to read that.

Ron 11:30

— is like, pretty light. You can read the description after this. Um, but like — I thought you were purposely doing this before.

GiannaMarie 11:39

No, I totally forgot!

Ron 11:40

Cause we’re just talking about the outside of the book. So like, the description on the back, it doesn’t really hint at how heavy a lot of the content is. Um, and I really liked it. But it was definitely not what I was expecting when I picked up the book. And also when I heard people talk about the book, because you were saying the same thing — people talk about this book, and they’re like, oh, wow, it’s so amazing! Like, what great representation! But they never say what they — and also it’s like, people who generally if they talk about a heavier book, they’re like, this book is heavier, blah, blah, blah. But this one, they’re just like, Oh, it’s so fun and amazing and I love it! And I’m like, Yeah, I agree. But also like, it’s weird that nobody mentions, like, all the bullying? [laughing]

GiannaMarie 12:32

The cover of this book is so adorable and very…soft.

Ron 12:37

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 12:37

Like, there’s not really any hard, firm edges. It’s very cute. And it is the greatest lie I have ever seen in my life.

Ron 12:52

[big laughter]

GiannaMarie 12:52

I…oh my God, I was not prepared. Um, because this book is not actually about autism. This book is about ableism and fear.

Ron 13:05

I mean, it is about autism, but like, yeah.

GiannaMarie 13:10

Okay, I’ll read the back of the book now. Then I have another question.

Ron 13:15

Okay.

GiannaMarie 13:17

So this is a quote, “other people’s minds are small, your mind is enormous. You don’t want to be like other people.” Which, I…when I read this, I thought that was like a, like a second person, like, rumination on this book. But actually, it was just something that someone said to Addie, which is less cool, but makes more sense. [both laughing] And for the actual cover copy: “Addie knows exactly who she is. Addie knows that sharks are more interesting than dolphins. She knows her favorite words in the thesaurus, and she knows that her older sisters are opposites. And when Addie learns about the witch trials that happened in her hometown, she knows there’s more to the story of these witches, just like there’s more to her. As Addie tries to get her small town to make a memorial for the witches, can she challenge the way they see her? A Kind of Spark is a story about courage, friendship and what it means to be different.”

Ron 14:22

Okay, so briefly, before we get into this more, I’ll just go over the content warnings —

GiannaMarie 14:27

That’s a good idea because honestly, the book looks like cotton candy and…it’s not cotton candy.

Ron 14:34

[laugh] Um, also, I will say sometimes we give content warnings for things that are a little bit lighter, like, they’re in the book, but they’re lighter. And sometimes we give content warnings for things that are in the book and are very heavily in the book. And I’ll be making note of that as we go through because like, definitely there are books that we’ve read that are super light and fluffy, but we still give quite a few content warnings for, but like, this isn’t the same thing. This is like things are very deeply dug into. Um, okay, so this is also not in order of appearance, this is just an order of how I wrote them down. So in one page, there’s a… not one page. In one like, instance, there’s a flashback to a time where an autistic character was forcibly restrained during a meltdown. As mentioned, this book is full of ableism. There’s a lot of bullying from the main characters, peers, there is academic ableism and like, abuse from a teacher. And there’s offensive language specifically, there’s one instance of the r-slur on page and that it’s discussed without repeating the word for a while after that. There’s a lot of gaslighting, specifically in an ableist way. There’s mention — like, repeatedly — of forced institutionalization, and like, information about someone specifically that it happened to like, in the character’s life —

GiannaMarie 16:20

Recently.

Ron 16:21

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 16:21

And fear of forced institutionalization is kind of the driving focus of this entire book.

Ron 16:28

Yes. There is some self hate. And there’s a lot of discussion of masking and how that can be draining, and even damaging, and relatedly, burnout and meltdowns, and there’s on page depiction of meltdowns and burnout. And then just moving on to things that are like — oh, also, this one is, I would say, not quite as…it’s not quite as on-page as the other stuff, but because there’s discussion of witch trials, there’s discussion of like, execution and torture. And there are some like, descriptions, but nothing like, super graphic. And then there’s also discussion of how a lot of witch trials were rooted in ableism. And how the two are connected and relatedly, like, death by ableism. Then just moving on to like, the last two things that are like, much, I would say, not quite as heavy as a lot of — as all the other things I just mentioned, but still like, something to be aware of, would be some rejection dysphoria that the main character feels, which if you don’t know what rejection dysphoria is, it’s basically when someone rejects something that’s important to you, and it hurts you personally, because it feels like they’re rejecting you. And then also, first person descriptions of like, how it feels to be overloaded, and like, having negative sensory experiences.

GiannaMarie 18:12

Yes, I think you definitely covered it. Um, I’m not generally a person who looks into content warnings, but I would have benefited from knowing about these beforehand. So moving from that, what did this book feel like to you? Because I felt a little bit like, shocked? After seeing people discuss this so lightly online. And even reviews don’t really give a good grasp of how intense this book is.

Ron 18:47

I felt like this book compared to…it kind of felt similar to reading an Angie Thomas book, I wouldn’t compare it to The Hate U Give, because I think that’s just like, not a good comparison to make, I’m not going to compare those two topics. But I would compare it more to like, the feeling of reading a — what’s it called — On the Come Up, that I read recently, because like, it gets into a lot of really heavy stuff, and a lot of it’s really stressful to read. But there also is like a lot of like, small jokes and more light hearted moments and nice people mixed throughout. And like it does have a relatively happy ending. But like, it is like way heavier than it seems from the outside for sure.

GiannaMarie 19:40

Like, the last…20? Pages? Kind of turned it around for me but, I believe that I texted Annaliese that this book felt like getting stabbed. Like, I felt like I was like, in the fetal position getting kicked in the gut while I was reading this book. It was, and Ron was like, does — does that mean that it was not good? Like, do you still want to talk about it? I’m like, No, we should talk about it, it was just really painful to read. Like, incredibly painful to read. It was so difficult. Like, it’s so short, and it looks so cute. And it’s sooo intense.

Ron 20:22

Mm-hmm.

GiannaMarie 20:24

As you should probably be aware of, from all of the content warnings by now.

Ron 20:29

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 20:30

It’s definitely… It’s definitely a book that’s — that very closely examines the, like, hyperempathy that autistic people can experience, which is kind of like — some people, like, most people, if like, you see some stranger drop their ice cream cone, you’re like, ah, sucks for them. But some people like, see something bad happen to someone else, and they just don’t have like, emotional barriers between themselves and other people. So bad things that happened to other people, it feels the same intensity as it happening to you. So you might see someone drop their ice cream, and you might cry because you’re like, Oh, my God, that’s so tragic! Um, which is definitely a neurodivergent thing and something that neurodivergent kids get roasted for.

Ron 21:38

Mm-hmm.

GiannaMarie 21:39

Pretty much this book is driven by Addie’s fear of forcible institutionalization. If she’s not, quote unquote, “good.” And Addie’s like, hyperempathetic response to learning about witch trials that happened in her tiny Scottish village years ago, centuries ago. Because she’s like, Oh, my God, those women were exactly like me and this could have happened to me, it might still happen to me. It… I’m not super hyperempathetic, but like, Jesus I felt it. [big sigh] It was a lot. [laugh]

Ron 22:29

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 22:32

I — I guess —

Ron 22:34

This was —

GiannaMarie 22:35

— the kind —

Ron 22:36

I think like, I guess I have two things. One, I think it’s really good how short this book is.

GiannaMarie 22:43

I couldn’t take it if it was longer!

Ron 22:46

Yeah, like, I think with the pa-, the punch that it packed. Like, if it had lasted any longer, it would have been, like, too much. And I also think that like, it really doesn’t waste any time at all, this book. Um, yeah.

GiannaMarie 23:10

I cannot believe this is a debut novel. [long pause]

Ron 23:12

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 23:15

Like, literally this is someone’s first novel. I looked into the place where she got it published, and apparently, like, their entire thing is finding underrepresented voices. And I — just the fact that someone read this query and was like, You know what, let’s make it happen! Like, it’s so wild. And it’s so hopeful. Like, it makes me feel like we’re moving in the right direction. In, in the publishing sphere of horror.

Ron 23:52

Some of us are.

GiannaMarie 23:55

What do you mean?

Ron 23:57

Do you not know about all the… all the recent book deals for horrible people?

GiannaMarie 24:04

I know about that.

Ron 24:06

Okay.

GiannaMarie 24:06

But that’s not new. So —

Ron 24:08

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 24:09

So I think that’s the — the, the control.

Ron 24:12

So I definitely think there’s like an influx of people who care about the right things in publishing. Yeah.

GiannaMarie 24:21

I’m hoping that we will…replace the bad people.

Ron 24:24

I’m just not lumping — I’m not lumping the bad people in with the good people. Like there’s good people but also like, I’m not giving credit to everybody in the industry because some of them deserve no credit. [laughing]

GiannaMarie 24:35

Okay. Only giving credit to Knights Of Media today, everyone else can suck it.

Ron 24:42

[laughter]

GiannaMarie 24:44

Knights Of Media, please look into me, because I would like to work for you. [laughing] Knights Of Media also published —

Ron 24:53

We will send them the transcript of this podcast. [laughing]

GiannaMarie 24:57

Knights Of Media also published Elle McNicoll’s second book, which is also with autistic main character, but it’s like, like, a speculative horror middle grade.

Ron 25:09

Interesting.

GiannaMarie 25:10

I know! I like it. Um. Yeah. I have a lot of disconnected thoughts about this book.

Ron 25:21

Um, well, first of all, before we get into it more, let’s just like basically briefly go through just, you know, what happens.

GiannaMarie 25:28

Yeah.

Ron 25:29

Um, as we mentioned, there’s a teacher that we would like to shoot out of the cannon. Into the sun.

GiannaMarie 25:35

Let me — let me explain. I’m — actually, to be honest, I kind of worry about the categorization and feel like this maybe shouldn’t be a middle grade novel. Not that middle grade kids shouldn’t be reading it, but like, the packaging and stuff…Makes me afraid. [laugh] The inciting incident for this book is — so Addie is an elementary schooler, her older sisters are twins. One of them is autistic. The autistic one just started university, so she’s 18. Her friend, her best friend, who was forcibly institutionalized several years ago, has just been transferred to adult Insane Asylum, etc. And it’s much worse for her there. So Addie is kind of thinking about this, and starts a new school year with a very awful teacher who Ron wants to light on fire.

Ron 26:34

Also, like something important to mention is Addie’s older sister Keedie is also autistic. Um, Addie has two older sisters, one’s autistic, one is not, and they’re twins. And Keedie, when Keedie was Addie’s age, also had this teacher, and was like, this teacher is the worst. But no one really fully believes Keedie about it.

GiannaMarie 27:01

Keedie is very tapped into disability justice. And no one takes her seriously. Except Addie, who adores, adores her. [long pause] Alright, let’s go through the couple of — the couple of things. The couple of plot things.

Ron 27:06

Mm-hmm. Yeah, so this story literally starts with the horrible teacher yelling at Addie for how bad her handwriting is, and tearing up a story that she’s been writing in front of the entire class. Um, which enough — ! — like, that’s literally enough right there to be like, this woman should not be allowed to teach! She shouldn’t even be allowed near children! Um, but then she gets worse throughout the book, which is just like, yeah. Like, this is the type of book where like, you can’t put it down. Because you’re full of so much rage. And you need to see justice happen.

GiannaMarie 27:56

I had to keep putting it down because it was — because I was getting emotionally overloaded. And it was painful. Like, I had to take a break and like, take a shower to calm down because I was so in pain over what this woman does to her.

Ron 28:13

Yeah, I guess it depends what kind of response you have to things, because I very much have an emotional response when I’m ang- that like, when I get upset about something. It’s like, I will not let it go until justice is served or until like, nothing else can be done. [heavy laughter]

GiannaMarie 28:29

This is why we’re a good team.

Ron 28:32

And you’re like, Okay, I need to take a step back. This is a lot.

GiannaMarie 28:37

Actually, this teacher, I can’t remember her name. Miss Murphy, she actually seems to be a semi decent teacher with like, neurotypical children.

Ron 28:49

Mm-hmm.

GiannaMarie 28:49

And like, literally just…turns into a demon. When there is a kid that she knows is different.

Ron 28:58

Yeah, like we specifically even know that there’s another kid in the class who is like, struggling a lot and is behind with reading, and that she really likes that student and spends a lot of time with her. Yeah. Anyway, so…that happens. Then she goes to the library, we meet the librarian, Mr. Allison, who is fantastic. He’s amazing. He’s the best.

GiannaMarie 29:27

I have a note about this. I was like, Ron is going to go wild over Mr. Allison! [both laughing]

Ron 29:32

I like how, okay, that — we see Mr. Allison, the librarian who’s amazing, and then later we also have a quick scene with a bookseller who’s also amazing, [laughing] and I’m like yes, represent!

GiannaMarie 29:45

And a theater teacher.

Ron 29:47

Yeah, there’s also the theater teacher, but I was specifically talking about like, — Book people. The people who deal books are just cool. [sustained laughter]

GiannaMarie 29:51

Book-related awesomeness. The book dealers. Out in the alley. With a plastic baggie to protect your book from the rain.

Ron 30:05

Also, I appreciate that Mr. Allison is like, here’s a book, keep it as long as you want.

GiannaMarie 30:12

I love —

Ron 30:12

That’s a good policy to have.

GiannaMarie 30:13

Yeah. Also, I don’t think they have that policy, I think he’s breaking the rules to make it easier for her.

Ron 30:20

When you’re the librarian, you make the rules.

GiannaMarie 30:22

Ohh. No wonder you wanna be a librarian.

Ron 30:25

Like, many librarians who are like, keeping up with research now, say a couple things about late fees and things. And those things include, if you’re not losing 25% of your collection to theft, you’re doing it wrong.

GiannaMarie 30:46

[high laughter] I love that!

Ron 30:48

And if you — like, basically you shouldn’t be charging late fees. Because that just discourages a lot of people. Like, obviously, it’s a way for the library to make income. But there’s also other ways for the library to make income, like selling your old discards instead of like, just donating them, although like, a lot of your old discards, you kind of can’t sell because it’s like, completely outdated information, or it’s falling apart. But anyway, um, and like, not doing fees for holds and stuff like that. So like, at my library in college, they like, technically had late fees, but mostly just to make sure they get it back. But then they pretty much would never actually charge you. It would just be like this number that’s adding up to like, make sure you get the book back [laugh] and then you turn it in, and they’re like, Okay, have a nice day! [laughing]

GiannaMarie 31:56

That’s…a system, for sure. [laugh]

Ron 32:00

I mean, I also think, like, they partially did that because the school itself would be like, No, you can’t do that. But also like, who’s gonna stop me. Like. [laughing]

GiannaMarie 32:12

But anyway, he’s an absolute godsend because not only does he actually pay attention to the kids, but he like, lets Addie eat in the library, which is not really supposed to be allowed either. And —

Ron 32:27

Which is also stupid. I assume that’s partially like a school policy, but like, allowing people to eat in the library, like yes, eating in the library should have restrictions on it, just to try and keep things neat. And also to try and not like, upset other people who don’t want to like, smell your food in the library? But eating in the library is like, a great thing to — A) if people have to starve in your library, then they’re not going to be able to study as effectively. If they’re like, sitting there and their stomach is growling, but they need to keep studying for this test. What are you doin’ to them? But also just like, let people have a nice time. Let people have a good time in your library. It doesn’t have to suck.

GiannaMarie 33:14

Yeah, Addie specifically goes there because it’s like, a safe place.

Ron 33:20

Mm-hmm.

GiannaMarie 33:21

And he’s very attuned to her special interests, and is always ready with more information because a good man knows that you should always feed a special interest.

Ron 33:35

Yes. Um, there are some things that happen before this, but I don’t think there’s much that’s like, plot relevant other than there’s a new girl at school this year. And she has like, a different accent because she’s from London. And Addie…Addie actually doesn’t really try and befriend this girl, even though like, she kind of has a plan? Like, Keedie is like, you should befriend her! Because like, you’re not really hanging out with your old friend anymore. So you should befriend the new girl! And like Addie’s like, okay, but then never actually does anything this girl just like swoops in and this like, we’re friends now! [laughing]

GiannaMarie 34:22

It was a good swoop.

Ron 34:23

Yes. Um, and then, in their class — they’re also both in the same class with this horrible teacher — and the teacher starts a unit on witches, which is how Addie first learns about it. The teacher introduces the topic and then Addie asks, like, legitimately good questions??, but the teacher is like, [annoying voice] how dare you! You’re derailing the lesson!! And it’s like cannon! Get it! Now. Anyway.

GiannaMarie 34:55

Wait, I have a — page 22: “Miss Murphy wants told one of the boys off for calling another boy stupid, but she doesn’t tell Emily off.” For calling her stupid.

Ron 35:08

Yep. [much louder] She actually says, You’re right, Emily!!

GiannaMarie 35:13

The kids actually say that Addie would have been tortured and executed as a witch if she had lived in that town a few hundred years ago.

Ron 35:27

And the teacher does nothing. [long sighs] I… But yeah, basically the stupid exchange happens when the teacher introduces the topic and said, Did you know we had witches in this town?! And Addie gets really excited and says, “real witches?” Which like, first of all, the teacher specifically said it that way to make it sound more like, ~ crazy and mystical and weird. Like, the teacher knew exactly what she was doing by like, trying to hook the class with that. And then a student falls for it. And she ridicules her! Even though that’s like, basically intentional on her part. Um, so — she, instead of answering the question, like, oh, are they real? She’s like, no, sit down. And then the other girl’s like, of course not, stupid. And then the teacher’s like, yeah, you’re right! To the girl who said that.

GiannaMarie 36:35

[prolonged sighs]

Ron 36:36

And that’s not even close to the worst thing she does.

GiannaMarie 36:39

I know. I…At first, I just wanted Miss Murphy to be away. And then I wanted her to be in trouble. And then my last note on her is that I hope she loses her job, and also her teaching credentials so she’s never allowed around children again.

Ron 36:58

Yeah. But anyway, this does incite a new special interest for Addie, which is witches, and specifically the witches that were in her town. And so she starts going to the library to study the witches all the time. And the new girl, Audrey, just kind of starts following her to the library. And isn’t annoying or anything, and seems cool. So Addie’s like, yeah, you can stay. And the new girl gets super into it, too. And the two of them decide —

GiannaMarie 37:34

No, Addie decided, on her own.

Ron 37:38

Well, no, I’m saying they decide to like work together on this.

GiannaMarie 37:40

Oh, yes. Once Addie was already feet first in.

Ron 37:45

So literally, in the first initial lesson, as soon as Addie heard about this, like, one of the first things she said is like, there should be a memorial! For the witches! Because like, this horrible thing was done to them. And the teacher’s like, [annoying voice] that’s a dumb idea! And I’m like, What the hell?

GiannaMarie 38:05

I love the reason that Addie has in her head for this because she really doesn’t explain this to other people. Like, there are plenty of reasons why a town might have a memorial, right?

Ron 38:17

Mm-hmm.

GiannaMarie 38:17

But Addie thinks like, we had a car accident where some people died, in an accident, like, over on route such and such. And like, people make a really big deal out of that. And there’s a little memorial there and people leave flowers and stuff. Like, 56 people were killed in this town? Like, why don’t we have someplace to leave flowers and like, like, mourn what happened to them? Which is actually?? Stellar logic!

Ron 38:46

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 38:47

I did not think about that. She’s such a good girl.

Ron 38:50

It makes a lot of sense and also like, it’s the type of thing where, like, I know, when I was a kid, if I like, brought up something like that, I…would probably expect adults to react pretty well to it. And be like, hey, that’s a really cool idea, and like, that’s a cool, like, community involvement thing you could do.

GiannaMarie 39:13

That is not what happens here.

Ron 39:13

— and also later on, like — Yeah, later on, though, when Addie does bring it up to some other people, like, their initial gut reaction is like, Oh my God, that’s a great idea! Like, that’s cool. But like, just the extreme — cuz I can kind of understand if the teacher was like, Oh, that’s an interesting idea, but like, didn’t really care. But like, just the viscerally horrible reaction of like, [annoying voice] that’s dumb, you’re interrupting the class!

GiannaMarie 39:48

And the way that they speak to her when she goes to — and propose this at the town — town board meetings —

Ron 40:06

Mm-hmm.

GiannaMarie 40:06

It’s…not…necessarily surprising, but still upsetting.

Ron 40:09

Yeah, it’s much less surprising from the town board people than from an educator, as well.

GiannaMarie 40:15

Yeah.

Ron 40:18

And also the town board people aren’t as bad as the educator! They still suck, they’re still awful. But. They at least seem to realize that, like, you know, what I’m — what I’m saying could theoretically be seen as bad. Whereas the teacher is just like, I’m right about everything. I’m just a horrible person and don’t care.

GiannaMarie 40:41

No, she behaves completely differently when there are other adults around.

Ron 40:45

That’s true. That’s definitely true.

GiannaMarie 40:47

It’s that there are witnesses at the town board.

Ron 40:49

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 40:52

Although there is a —

Ron 40:53

But like, when the town board does, like, because she does speak to him privately, at one point —

GiannaMarie 40:58

He’s terrified of her.

Ron 40:58

And like, he’s — he’s not nice to her at all at that point, but he’s still way more reasonable than the teacher, or not reasonable, but like, way less —

GiannaMarie 41:11

Abusive?

Ron 41:12

— horrifyingly awful. Like, I would still probably shoot him out of a cannon? But like, I would just like, shoot him into the ocean. Whereas like, I want to shoot the teacher into the sun. To be clear.

GiannaMarie 41:26

No fun circus cannon shooting, that is not what we are talking about today.

Ron 41:35

[laughing hard] Um, but I mean, like that the guy shot into the ocean, he’d have a chance to maybe swim back and apologize for what he did, and…lead a better life. [both laughing] Anyway, um, so they keep working on this proposal, and they get turned down multiple times. And then they kind of decide, we’re just going to like, raise the money anyway, and then do it. But they also have no idea [laughing hard] how expensive it is to make a memorial. They’re like, Oh, I think 20 bucks, right?

GiannaMarie 41:41

Twenty pounds!

Ron 42:09

And they have like, yeah, they’re like, they have 14 by the end of the day. And they’re like, Oh, this is going great! And then they say that someone else and she’s like, Ohhhhhh!,…nice! [both laughing]

GiannaMarie 42:34

It’s, um…the guy in charge of the town board actually believes that someone else? wants a witch memorial and has chosen the most pitiable person to champion this, hoping that sympathy for Addie will get it accomplished. And Addie is like, if you think that I could be put up to something like this, then I don’t think you know very many autistic girls? [both laughing] Which — very true, Addie. Very true. [both laughing] Ron is nodding because it’s impossible to get me to do anything unless I wanna do it. [laughing]

Ron 43:27

Um, especially like, the fact that he does it so enthusiastically, like — she’s not sitting there being like, [Tiny Tim accent] Please, sir, can I have a memorial? She’s like, [demanding] Gimme a memorial!!

GiannaMarie 43:42

She has like, a bucket outside of the bookstore. [laughing] And Keedie is like, here take my spare change. It’ll be more like, enticing if people think that someone’s already fallen for this. [both laughing] So then they jingle it really enthusiastically. Like, make people stop cars to talk to them. I actually kind of wish that we didn’t know how old it was by the end because very much read like it could have been any time during elementary school.

Ron 44:19

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 44:20

Which I think was intentional. But at the end, we find out the Addie is 11, and I’m kind of like, Damn, I’m really disappointed in her classmates. [laugh]

Ron 44:34

Um, yeah. But kind of meanwhile, like, along with this, um, Keedie’s in her first year of college and she’s also the first person from their family to go to college. Her twin sister is ~ an influencer ~ and doesn’t go to school, and is like — at the very beginning she’s complaining like, I’m getting — I’m losing views because we stopped doing hauls! And their parents are literally just like, like, lower middle class, like, struggling working night shifts, and they’re like, we can’t keep just buying huge amounts of clothing. Like every week. This is dumb. We’re not doing that anymore. Um — also just like —

GiannaMarie 45:23

Nina — Nina is the influencer sister, she is… such an ableist bitch at the beginning, and then she has like, a redemption arc?

Ron 45:32

Yes.

GiannaMarie 45:33

Which — for such a short book, is very impressive!

Ron 45:38

I think like, she kind of always had that in her, like from the start like, she definitely could have — it was just like, that she was too absorbed in her own feelings to think about, like, what her sisters were dealing with.

GiannaMarie 45:53

Oh, you know, I actually got a very different impression. Because Nina explains how, you know, Keedie had Miss Murphy, and it was — but she had, like, but Nina had, like, like, a human sunshine teacher that year, because they were separated.

Ron 46:11

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 46:12

And like it, it seems like she definitely fell off of like, her ability to…believe Keedie and empathize with Keedie, because she wasn’t seeing it anymore.

Ron 46:25

Mm-hmm.

GiannaMarie 46:25

And then it, like, they grew apart a bit as as Addie got to be a little bit older. Because Keedie and Addie have so much in common. And Nina started to feel left out. But Nina is doing a little bit of like, childcare here.

Ron 46:43

Mm-hmm.

GiannaMarie 46:43

And — because both of their parents work full time jobs, and — she made a very terrible influencing mistake at the beginning of the book.

Ron 46:53

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 46:54

Um, so between, like, learning from that, and then being the person who like, gets called to school and like, sees something happen?

Ron 47:05

Mm-hmm.

GiannaMarie 47:06

Like, Nina very much…does a complete U turn and is like, Damn, I need to apologize to Addie privately like, this is all my problem. Like, I really closed myself off and like, didn’t believe anything that was going on because I had a — such a different experience.

Ron 47:26

Yeah, I mean, that’s what I was saying, is like she was just so — because also something she mentions is that like, she felt like she was the one who was left out. Because like the other two sisters got along with each other so well. But Addie basically says to this, like, yeah, the two of us had each other. But that’s because like, the rest of society isolates us.

GiannaMarie 47:46

[stressed laugh]

Ron 47:46

Whereas like, you’re literally an influencer, you fit in! Like, you have lots of people who like, don’t — like, that you can feel included by, but like, we basically just have each other. Um, but I — like — she was too much in her own head about like, that, and thinking about her own problems, and not listening to or understanding the problems her sisters were dealing with. And just being like, like, How come nobody pays attention to me? How come nobody listens to me? Which I also think is, like, understandable. For like, something that a sibling would go through. Like, it’s a pretty normal thing. Like, I do think — I wish she figured it out a little bit younger, because she’s like, an adult by now, basically.

GiannaMarie 48:40

She’s 18.

Ron 48:42

Yeah. Um, so she’s not like — she’s like a baby adult. Um, but like, old enough to know, things. Um, but like, I definitely know it’s a normal thing for like, siblings, who might have like, disabled siblings and the other person doesn’t have a disability, sometimes they can feel left out because it feels like their sibling’s getting more attention than them and stuff like that. But like, it’s important to understand that unless like, your parents are actually, like, actively being awful to you. That — in which case, it’s the parents’ issue, not the sibling’s issue — that there’s actually not anything going on that’s like, trying to make you feel left out. It’s just that you have different needs.

GiannaMarie 49:38

Yeah, definitely. [long pause] There is kind of like a, like a hermit woman who has a pet turtle —

Ron 49:55

[laughing hard] A tortoise, excuse me??

GiannaMarie 49:58

You’re right, you’re right. He is a tortoise. And lives out in the middle of the woods. And Audrey is like, Ooh, she seems kind of witchy. And Addie is like, ***neurodivergent spidey sense.*** [both laugh] And this poor woman is like, Girl, it’s a great idea, but they are never ever going to approve it. Like, ever. Just move on with your life and get used to being disappointed horribly by people. But then they do approve it. And she’s like, well, I’m rich, and pays for the whole thing herself! [both laugh] And then they like, thank her at the thing, and she’s like, she’s like, okay, now I can leave. And doesn’t talk to anyone, even though she’s the donor. [laughing]

Ron 50:44

Like, basically at the event, she’s just chilling off to the side. And as soon as they say her name, she’s like, Okay, I’m outta here. [laughing]

GiannaMarie 50:55

Relatable AF.

Ron 50:58

Also like when they — so basically the reason they we see her house and know she has a tortoise and that conversation happens about nothing’s ever going to change, is because um, the new girl, Audrey, is like, hey, let’s go look at this creepy house in the woods. And then Addie’s like, this is kinda weird, I know who she is? Um, but like, Audrey, like, runs up to peek in the window and the woman’s like, right there and comes out of the house with her tortoise and is like, hey. And like, lets them see the tortoise for like two seconds and has that very quick conversation, and then is like, Okay, bye. [both laughing]

GiannaMarie 51:36

I just can’t get over this woman who picks the tortoise up, like, and puts it under her arm to go to the door. [both laughing]

Ron 51:44

Yeah!

GiannaMarie 51:48

I love it. Um, and kind of alongside this, Keedie is still living at home, but she’s in — in college. And uh…she’s not doin’ so good. It’s very difficult for her. And she has not told anyone at college, which I think is — I don’t think she’s told any of her peers, but I also don’t think she’s told the university that she’s autistic. So I don’t believe she’s getting any kind of accommodations. And she’s also not really being herself. Like, Addie is like, but you’ve always been like, autistic and proud! And she’s like, I am proud, I’m just masking really hard! So university is bad, but y’all probably knew that already. Um, pretty much the rest of my notes are…

Ron 52:48

Um, so back to the teacher plot —

GiannaMarie 52:50

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Ron 52:50

Basically, the teacher plot continues to get worse and boils over when this other girl — so okay, this is another plot. There’s a lot of like, plots going on. In this book for such a like, short, quick read. So as I mentioned towards the beginning, there was someone that Addie used to be friends with who she hasn’t been hanging out with anymore, and now she’s friends with Audrey instead. And that’s because this other girl, ah, Jenna? Is that her name? I think it is.

GiannaMarie 53:20

Jenna is the one that she used to be friends with.

Ron 53:22

Yeah. Yeah, so this other girl Jenna, she used to be friends with just kind of like, stopped talking to her because she started hanging out with this other girl, Emily. And like, Jenna isn’t super horrible on her own. But she was also never a good friend. And she completely enables Emily, who is super horrible. And Emily is basically just the worst, um, and has been bullying — for some reason I almost said Audrey — Addie — has been bullying Addie all year. And then Addie is at the bookstore at the same time as Emily, and Emily’s father is like, really horrible to her and is like, basically ordering her really little kids books to practice reading because her reading isn’t that great and is like, very rude and condescending about it. And like, also refuses the bookseller’s options of like, hey, like, if she like, maybe got an audio book and the book to read along, maybe she could read books that are more interesting to her, and work on reading that way. And the dad’s like, [snaps] no! Because he’s horrible. He’s…another one we can probably shoot out of a cannon. Anyway, so Emily is very embarrassed by this, and Emily is also a bully, and Addie likes to read a lot. And Emily’s already been bullying Addie anyway. So Emily…horribly defaces the thesaurus that Addie carries around all the time that she really loves. And is just, like….we mentioned, there’s an R slur in the book. And that’s what she writes on Addie’s thesaurus. And Addie — over a drawing that Keedie did to personalize it. Yeah. And Addie — reasonably, I would say! — freaks out. And her like, gut reaction without thinking is to hit Emily. And like, jump on her, basically.

GiannaMarie 55:36

No! She’s actually keeping her cool very well, and she’s actually like, confronting the other students —

Ron 55:40

That’s true. That’s true. It’s not right away, she’s confronting her at first. But then Emily keeps instigating, like, Emily keeps saying worse and worse and worse things.

GiannaMarie 55:50

She even like, confronts the rest of the class, like, you just let her do this? Like, if — if she was going to do this to one of your things, I wouldn’t let her do that. And — the thing that causes it to go to shit is that Emily mentions Keedie. And — — then it is…I had….I had a saying, and — it’s on like Donkey Kong.

Ron 56:08

Yeah. [hard laugh]

GiannaMarie 56:17

It is, like, Oh, my God, I think Addie bit her??

Ron 56:24

She was going to, I think, but I don’t think she actually did. I think she was about to when someone pulled her off.

GiannaMarie 56:31

Addie definitely bit someone, whether it was Emily, or, um —

Ron 56:35

No, she bit the person who restrained her sister —

GiannaMarie 56:38

Keedie when she was a child.

Ron 56:39

When they were kids. Yeah. Um, anyway, thankfully, at this point, not only the horrible teacher is there, but also the librarian catches the end of this. And he’s actually the one who pulls Addie off. And the teacher basically tries to blame all of this on Addie. And doesn’t even like, ask for the story of what happened, is just like, Addie’s horrible, and like, needs to be like, removed from the school and isolated and taught separately.

GiannaMarie 57:11

Preferably expelled.

Ron 57:12

Yeah, which, again! Another thing, if you know anything about education, at all, and this isn’t even like, super recent research, like, this is something every educator should know at this point is like, isolating disabled students isn’t good for anybody. Like, it just enables abled students to be more ableist and have less experience, like, interacting with people who aren’t like them. And it also just makes it harder for the disabled students to succeed. And it also just like, is like, saying that, like, it’s just all— separate is not equal! And that’s that.

GiannaMarie 57:56

I have — I have — I have some thoughts about this, it’s very clear to me that this teacher saw this as an opportunity to get rid of Addie.

Ron 58:04

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 58:04

But also, she’s been teaching for over 20 years. And she seems to think that she has the ability to suspend or expel her without any higher ups involved?? Like, she definitely is like, the very least I could offer Emily’s parents is a suspension, but I would like to expel her —

Ron 58:25

Well, it is pretty easy to get a student suspended without much needing to be done, like, all she would have to say is like, she like, beat another student up, and like whatever. And it’s pretty easy to get a student suspended. It is much more difficult to get a student, like, expelled.

GiannaMarie 58:42

[sigh] So, um, the parents are not available because they both work full time. So Nina is the one to come.

Ron 58:53

And it is definitely weird an administrator is never involved in — within the course of this book like, that kind of — like it kind of makes no sense? Like that the very last confrontation they have doesn’t involve an administrator at all, because like, I mean, I don’t know how the school specifically works. And I also don’t know how much they could get away with that this school without getting an administrator involved, but like, in my own experience, and like, school policies I know of, and I know of quite a few, usually if it’s something involving suspension, like, at all. Like if that is — or detention or anything like that, and it also is involving like, violence between students, a like, principal or vice principal would definitely be at a meeting about something like this. So it’s weird that that never happens.

GiannaMarie 59:53

Yeah, things are…things definitely get out of control when Keedie also arrives—

Ron 1:00:01

Yes.

GiannaMarie 1:00:01

— to the meeting and the years have certainly not dimmed the hatred between them.

Ron 1:00:11

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 1:00:12

The, we should specify, mutual hatred. Which is —

Ron 1:00:19

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 1:00:19

— very inappropriate for…a teacher. But Nina is…so good.

Ron 1:00:25

But also like, Keedie, yes, like maybe Keedie’s whole thing wasn’t very like, professional or whatever, considering they were there to talk about — but also the teacher is not professional, so who cares? Keedie did an excellent job like, laying into this teacher. Just like —

GiannaMarie 1:00:42

Nina was pretty good herself!

Ron 1:00:45

Yeah, Nina was very good at the more like, professional, like, side of this, of like not taking any bullshit but like not, you know, insulting the teacher and stuff like that. Whereas Keedie was just like, roasting this woman. Just like, obliterating her, like verbally attacking, like, laying in to this woman and how horrible she is. And it was honestly very nice. So at the end, or not the end, but like the middle of this confrontation, um, it looks like things are kind of going very badly, and nothing is going to get solved. But then Mr. Allison shows up. And also Audrey. And Audrey was there the whole time, and is the only student — although all the other students were there the whole time — who like, stands up for Addie, and actually like, brings the evidence and explains what happened.

GiannaMarie 1:01:50

Her older sisters are, as you might imagine, absolutely floored by this evidence. And they’re like, Why didn’t you tell us? And Addie is such a good girl. Like, like such a good girl that it actively hurts her in some situations because she did not say anything. Because she was like, I didn’t want Keedie to have to see that. [small sobbing noises] I — there’s definitely a conversation in this book where it’s like, autistic people can’t have empathy! And she’s like, I have so much more empathy than you. [both laughing] And Keedie is like, ~ so sad for the neurotypicals, they can’t feel empathy. ~ [both laughing]

Ron 1:02:37

I also think — there’s also another part that’s funny, where it’s, um — what’s her name? The older sister, not Keedie. But the other one. Nina?

GiannaMarie 1:02:49

Nina.

Ron 1:02:49

Is her name Nina? Yeah, Nina and the mom start yelling at each other and fighting. And like, Addie and Keedie could kind of care less and they just stay sitting at the dinner table while the other two storm off shouting at each other. [laugh] And they’re like, Why are the neurotypicals like, being so over the top? [laughing]

GiannaMarie 1:03:13

I definitely get the impression that the autism in the family comes from their dad’s dad, because he was like, belted in school and stuff.

Ron 1:03:24

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 1:03:25

For…being inattentive and not wanting to do his work, et cetera, et cetera.

Ron 1:03:29

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 1:03:29

And like, the dad is…horribly insulted by Nina and so mom takes up the cause while the dad just sits with Keedie and Addie, and Addie puts on his favorite record, and the three of them sit in happy silence together. [both laughing] So…I think we know where it comes from. [both laughing] Um, so we have some more fun things to talk about. But I’m going to read a part first and then we’re going to talk about ~masking~ because that’s a huge part of this book. So I’m on page 63. So they’re on a little a little field trip that they walked to the nearby like, tree where they used to hang witches?? Um, and there’s a PhD student who’s like, telling them about this stuff, and like all the — the details that usually play well to groups of bloodthirsty children. Um, and Addie has a meltdown, like, she does her best to contain it, but then she just ends up like, screaming and crying. And Miss Murphy is quite a bitch about it. And so eventually Miss Murphy just like, makes the class and leave and leaves her behind? Um. So this doctoral student is left to try and comfort her. So he says, “‘No need to be upset — so upset,’ Mr Patterson says in a jolly tone as I desperately try to control my breathing. ‘It was very sad. But like I said, a very long time ago.’ ‘They killed them because they were different.’ ‘Well, yes, Mary was an imbecile and Jean was-’ ‘I hate that word.’ ‘Well, nowadays, we would say she had special needs-’ ‘Like me. She was like me.’ His face drains of color. It’s almost funny. He starts to stammer in embarrassment while I try to put my invisible mask back on. I force myself to make eye contact with him. Something I hate. Something that feels unnatural and painful sometimes. ‘I am not an imbecile.’ ‘No, of course not,’ he bleats. Maggie, Jean, and Mary. Tricked and cornered, lied to and lied about. I feel despair for all three of them so much that I can’t breathe.” And there’s a very — ah, two pages later. Um, on 66. “‘History can be a difficult subject if you get too emotionally attached,’ Mr Patterson says strangely cheerful. ‘Wars, famine, witch trials, you have to detach yourself from it all.’ ‘She’s trying,’ Dad says in response. ‘And we don’t really want Addie to lose her compassion.’ ‘Yes, well,’ Mr Patterson splays his hands out and gestures at me. ‘It’s quite refreshing, I know most children with autism don’t have a lot of empathy, so it’s good to see.’ Mum makes a rattling sound in her throat. Dad reaches over and presses down on her thigh. ‘I’m autistic,’ I correct him, almost automatically. ‘It’s something you are, not something you have. And that’s a very common misunderstanding. Autistic people are actually very…’ ‘Empathetic,’ Mum assists. ‘Yeah.’ Mr Patterson goes a little red. ‘How many autistic people do you know, Mr Patterson?’ I ask, genuinely curious. ‘Oh, well, I-’ he tugs at his collar. ‘Well, none, I suppose.’ ‘Except me.’ ‘Yes,’ he nods slowly, smiling sheepishly. ‘Except you, Addie.’” So…. take a minute, take a shower. Like go have a snack. [stressed laughter] This was so devastating. Poor baby. [long pause] I feel like that guy has a chance, but also right now we could also put him in the cannon.

Ron 1:08:05

We’d just shoot him into like —

GiannaMarie 1:08:08

The small loch nearby?

Ron 1:08:10

Yeah, like, not even the ocean. We just like, we’re like, dude, like, we don’t hate you or anything, we just need you to do better. So like, just take this as a lesson. We’ll even give him a little life jacket. He has the best — the best shot.

GiannaMarie 1:08:28

After he shoots out, a single life jacket shoots after him.

Ron 1:08:34

[loud laughter]

GiannaMarie 1:08:38

Um, I definitely wanted to — I have like one quote to pull, and I wanted to talk about masking, and then we have some more fun things to kind of wrap it up.

Ron 1:08:48

Mm-hmm. Um, kind of like piggybacking on the couple of sections that you were pointing to — I think another relevant section though — and I think we’ve kind of already covered this, but I like want to read the actual quote from the book.

GiannaMarie 1:09:04

Like you said before, this book does not waste words.

Ron 1:09:07

Definitely not.

GiannaMarie 1:09:08

Every single one of these words is like a hammer strike.

Ron 1:09:16

Or a very good joke that is absolutely necessary. So as we already explained like, and as those passages showed, like, Keedie, I mean, sorry, I was looking at the page and saw Keedie’s name. Addie cares a lot about this because of how much she like, relates to the witches. And so basically, this is — once they decide to start pushing this more after the first failed attempt at the town council approval. Audrey and Addie team up, and It turns out Audrey is a very talented artist and creates a like, flier. She does the art for their flier. And then they’re like, handing them out. And so they show off the flyer and Nina sees it and is like, “‘well, isn’t this a bit of fantastic, Addie, did you draw this?’ ‘No, Audrey did!’ I tell her. ‘She’s on the team!’ ‘Amazing.’ ‘I told her why it matters. And I told her about Bonnie.’” And Bonnie is the person that they know who was institutionalized. “Keedie’s eyes shoot up to meet mine, her smile gone. ‘What?’ I glanced from Keedie to Nina. She’s watching Keedie intently. My voice shakes a little as I explain. ‘I told her what they did to Bonnie.’ ‘She thinks it’s similar, Keedie,’ Nina says softly. ‘The witches. She thinks it’s the same.’ Keedie slowly passes the flyer back, laying it gently on the table. ‘It is the same.’”

GiannaMarie 1:11:05

Yeah, there’s also a part where, when Mr Patterson is doing the exposition, he’s like, well, in olden times, people were less understanding! And I’m like, [disbelieving laughs] you mean we don’t kill people for the same reasons now? You mean we don’t choose people that we decide are too annoying, and we’d like to pin all of our problems on, and then kill them? Are you saying that doesn’t happen anymore? Um, but also there were definitely — there were definitely preindustrialist, precapitalist communities, where disabled people were safe and valued members of their communities. So. It definitely depends on the type of people in power [slight panting] in your community. It does not really have to do with…how long ago it was.

Ron 1:12:06

Yeah, the methods are different, like, we don’t very commonly see people tossed in barrels of nails anymore. But.

GiannaMarie 1:12:29

Um…so…quote that ties into where we’re going….So Keedie and Nina have an argument over Nina making a huge mistake with involving Addie in a video, a makeup video, which basically Addie like, doesn’t like anyone except Keedie touching her. But Nina is fantastic with Addie’s hair. And she loves it when Nina pays attention to her. So she consents to be part of a like, a little makeover video or something. And that is a very bad decision. Not of Addie’s, but of everyone else’s involved. And Keedie is screaming at Nina later, um, because Nina is like, but you don’t understand, like, she’s not like you, she doesn’t ha- like, you and her like, don’t even — they — you don’t even have it bad, like — you — the two of you have it mild. And Keedie — I know this, I’ve seen this quote before, Keedie says, “It’s mild to you because we make it so. At great personal cost!” With exclamation point. Um, which ties kind of neatly into our conversation about masking, which is kind of like…you need to mask because otherwise you will be hung as a witch or forcibly institutionalized. Um, so the two of them are often talking about masking and like, trying to — which — which masking is when a neurodivergent person pretends to be a neurotypical person. Like, you might pretend that flickering lights and high pitched noises that you hear are not actually painful or bothering you at that moment. Or like, you are not having a panic attack, etc. Um, and this book has very, very focused on masking, and I was a little bit destroyed by it, because Keedie explains to Addie off page that masking is like the same thing as when a superhero is pretending to be their secret identity. And I was like, Ohhhhhh, no!, that’s like my favorite trope!

Ron 1:15:11

[laughing]

GiannaMarie 1:15:12

Like, not even in like — like it’s never done to my satisfaction in the source media, but like, things that I think about constantly are like, how difficult it is for people to pretend to be…human. Which is exactly what we’re doing when we’re masking. I was like, goddamn, Elle McNicoll! You came right for me! I feel so targeted!

Ron 1:15:47

I’m surprised you’ve never heard that analogy before, because I actually had heard it before, and just like assumed it was something that you were aware of, because you’re you.

GiannaMarie 1:15:56

No!, I had never thought about it before. But then like, in an instant, everything flicked through my head, like all of these like, autistic Peter Parker fanfics I’ve read because, um, what was I going to say? Like, a lot of people headcanon him as autistic in different movies, but especially the MCU because he describes like, like, his senses feel like they’ve been dialed up to 11 after the spider bite, which is something that a lot of autistic people can relate to. And, like, like, like, fanfics of like, how difficult it is for him to remember, like, which parts of the, like, all of the parts of the building are like, the floor, and which parts are not the floor, like, which parts are like, allowed to be walked on, and which parts can’t be walked on. Like, like, because it all feels the same to him. Um, or like, like, there’s frequent, like, running jokes in Supergirl all the time about like random things that she forgets about pretending to be human and those are always, always things that I think about for so long. Like, like, she got asked when she was a teenager, she got asked to dance by like, the most popular boy and she stepped on his foot and broke three of his toes.

Ron 1:17:17

Oh, no! [laughing]

GiannaMarie 1:17:21

Um, in her life since she was on earth — so since she was 13…On no less than four occasions, she nuzzled into a man’s face after a kiss and broke his nose. [laugh] Or like, she’ll like, take a drink from something very hot and then like, pretend but she got scalded like, way too late, and it’s very awkward, or like she’ll be picking something up out of the out of the oven with no hand mittens on or something — like, and then she’s like, Oooh! Actually that hurt! A lot! Um, I’m squishy! Like —

Ron 1:17:59

[both laughing] I’m squishy!!

GiannaMarie 1:18:01

Um, I think about those things constantly, like so much. [emotional] How did I not see it before? [heavy breathing] It is — I — ahhh. I — it makes me think so much like, was this an intentional neurodivergent parallel? Like, when they were inventing the concept of the secret identity, and it’s like, ooh, Clark Kent has to pretend to be a human man. Like —

Ron 1:18:53

Like, I don’t think so. Like, knowing the history of the character, I don’t think so. But I think like, there’s something to be said about also the similarity of like — because I know that the creators of Superman obviously were Jewish.

GiannaMarie 1:19:07

Oh, yes. Yes. Superman is —

Ron 1:19:09

So a lot of people read into that about like, you know, being — having to pretend to be literally perfect just to be accepted. And I think that like, that has a lot of similarities with masking.

GiannaMarie 1:19:25

Superman is like, Superman and Captain America are the two different sides of the the Jewish superheroes — superheroes created by Jewish young men during World War Two.

Ron 1:19:42

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 1:19:42

On one side of the coin is the Jewish fighting spirit, Captain America. I can do this all day. And on the other side is the Jewish “I don’t want to be killed in a pogrom” spirit, which is, you must assimilate and pretend that you are absolutely the same as everyone around you and that you’re not actually in diaspora or the survivor of a genocide.

Ron 1:20:08

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 1:20:11

Um, so that, that broke me. It broke me. I’m — [laughing] not really that okay after thinking about this. Um.

Ron 1:20:30

I also think it’s just something that probably anyone who’s in a marginalized community can relate to some extent. Because like, most people who are marginalized are forced to, like, try and pretend to fit some kind of ideal to get by more. Like, it’s different for different people. And it’s obviously not the same as masking at all, but like, I think a lot of people can relate to the idea of like, how exhausting it is to pretend that you’re not exactly you. Just so that people won’t try to hurt you.

GiannaMarie 1:21:15

Yeah, yeah, that’s. That is definitely a… Why don’t we move into the fun parts?

Ron 1:21:31

[laughing] Um, so Okay, I’m like, gotta get my — I have so many like, crying laughing faces drawn in my notes.

GiannaMarie 1:21:46

Oh, I don’t have very many of those.

Ron 1:21:47

Oh, my God. One of the best things about this book! So finally once like they’ve been friends for a while Addie is like, Audrey’s awesome, I really want to know like, everything about Audrey now. Because I’m like, pretty sure we’re like, gonna be good friends. And then by the end, they’re like, legit best friends. And like, Addie really doesn’t like physical contact, and the only person Addie will consistently hug is, um —

GiannaMarie 1:22:14

Keedie.

Ron 1:22:14

Keedie. I was gonna say Kaddie, and I was like, that’s wrong. But at the end, both Nina and Audrey get hugs. And it’s very sweet.

GiannaMarie 1:22:26

When Nina has her nice little apology, at the end, she says, “Can I hug?” And Addie says, “A quick one!” With an exclamation point. So Nina gives her a quick firm hug and then gets her hands off so fast. As she should.

Ron 1:22:42

Meanwhile, like, so basically — It’s really cute with Audrey too, because like, at one point when Audrey and Addie are hanging out, Audrey like, without really thinking or meaning anything by it like, grabs Addie’s arm to like kind of be like, hey, over here. And like Addie is like, Hell no, I don’t like that. And Audrey’s like, oh, okay, I’m sorry. Do you hug your friends? And she’s like, no. [laugh] And then at the end, basically, like without, like, without Audrey asking or anything, Addie’s just like, hug now! [laughing]

GiannaMarie 1:23:20

This isn’t that funny, which is why — we’re getting warmed up a little bit. Um, when she’s trying to explain autism to Audrey. She says her brain is only like, encyclopedic — “Only if I find it interesting. When I don’t find something interesting. My brain switches off.” And she’s like, I can’t help it! But like, Ron, Does this sound familiar to you at all? [laughing] I always forget important things — important things about Ron, or that Ron has told me and then it’ll be like, but I can remember all of Wonder Woman’s comics chronology! [laughing]

Ron 1:24:05

Um, but anyway, what I got distracted from — so Addie decides that she wants to know everything about Audrey, and is like, are you named after like, Audrey Hepburn. And Audrey’s like no, I’m named after a man eating plant! Cuz she’s named after Audrey, the plant from Little Shop of Horrors! [laughing]

GiannaMarie 1:24:30

That’s really great though.

Ron 1:24:33

I think that’s the one thing in this book that legit made me laugh out loud while I was reading it. I was just like, Oh my God! What! [laughing]

GiannaMarie 1:24:42

Are we going to talk about the dolphins versus sharks debate here, because…the dolphins took a lotta shade in this book.

Ron 1:24:51

They did. They certainly did.

GiannaMarie 1:24:54

Addie loves sharks because sharks are so smart and they — they have like that really cool electric sense that I can’t remember the name of, where they can sense electricity because they have these little sensory organs that look like hairs on their skin that’s like, in a special kind of neurological jelly in little — in their little not-hair follicles. Sharks are very cool. And there’s lots of different kinds. And she’s like, I’m gonna try to like dolphins because Audrey like dolphins, but she’s like, they’re smug. [laughing hard] They all look alike. They’re more friendly and easier to get to know. And as a person who loves marine mammals, I am so sad for these dolphins. The dolphins are actually very cool. But I don’t think you’re going to learn that much about like, the really cool and unique things about dolphins at an elementary school library level, because it’s more of a like, paying your own way into JSTOR level. [laugh] But, um —

Ron 1:26:19

Does your school not have JSTOR?

GiannaMarie 1:26:23

My…elementary school?

Ron 1:26:25

Okay, no, I thought you were saying you pay for your own JSTOR subscription, I was like, why, why would you ever do that?

GiannaMarie 1:26:34

Um, and Keedie gets an encyclopedia of all ocean things for Addie, because she’s like, I know you’re pretending not to like sharks anymore. But I thought you could include the other ocean animals in there too, and I’m like, Keedie, you’re the good one. Like, don’t leave the dolphins out hangin’ to dry.

Ron 1:26:58

[laughing]

GiannaMarie 1:26:58

But then at the end, Audrey is like, Okay, so I’ve been doing some reading about sharks on the sly…and you were right. They’re way cooler than dolphins! [both laugh] And I was like, how could you leave the dolphins like that, but also I had to put the book down to happy flap. [both laughing]

Ron 1:27:21

Back to the hugging thing, I remembered one of the good funny light hearted parts also comes in one of the hugging scenes. The hugging scene with Nina. Um, so basically Nina has the whole heart to heart about like, feeling left out and like, not fitting in with the other sisters. And so, Addie says, “‘I love you, Nina. I don’t need you to be just the same as Keedie. I love you for being you.’ She bursts into loud sobs. I jump up, horrified. ‘I’ve said the wrong thing!’ ‘No, it’s okay.’ She’s smiling a watery smile. ‘I’m sorry. I love you too, Addie. Just as you are. Maybe without the punching.’” [both laughing. Clapping]

GiannaMarie 1:28:09

Yes, I remember that. I remember that.

Ron 1:28:14

Also, the town hall meetings, like, when other people are airing their grievances and the things that they want addressed. [laughing hard] Oh my god.

GiannaMarie 1:28:24

Yes. In new business.

Ron 1:28:29

Let’s see.

GiannaMarie 1:28:30

There…was there — someone wants to eat the — they want to like, kill and the d — ?

Ron 1:28:34

I’ll get there! I’m gonna read it. I’m going to read it. Okay, so there’s this town hall meeting. Um, first there’s like this Karen, who’s like —

GiannaMarie 1:28:47

Oh my god.

Ron 1:28:47

[annoying voice] There needs to be a curfew on youths at the park. They loiter, they smoke, they start fires! Blah, blah, blah and Keedie’s like, “so what? You’re gonna have a bouncer at the swings?”

GiannaMarie 1:28:59

[laughing] She’s so great.

Ron 1:29:02

And then that one pretty quickly gets dismissed and it’s like, next! “‘The geese at Juniper Pond are demonic!’” And then a couple of people are like, “Aye.” Also the town hall meetings like, reading most of this book I didn’t really imagine accents, but all the town hall meetings I could hear the accents so clearly. [laughing] Um, and then — “‘What do you propose we do about them, Robert?’” And somebody else — “Eat them!” And then it’s just quickly like, no, next! [laughing]

GiannaMarie 1:29:40

I had to stop and think about that for a while because I was like, this is obviously a joke, but how many layers are there in this joke?

Ron 1:29:47

[laughing]

GiannaMarie 1:29:47

Like, are we supposed to just dismiss this out of hand, or are we supposed to think that people actually want eat the ducks, because — I say this because — Avery’s mother…is a gardener. And she has some persistent deer, whom she despises, and believes stare aggressively at her, because they know that it’s her territory, and that they are intruders. And that they’re asserting their dominance by keeping eye contact. Um, so she literally like, once asked her neighbor to shoot them. And then she was like, we could all have venison! And I was like, Avery’s mother is terrifying! [both laugh] So I’m like, I can’t dismiss the reality that this person could, possibly, really want to eat the ducks, as punishment.

Ron 1:30:45

Yeah. I mean, it makes more sense than just murdering them and then like leaving their bodies on the ground.

GiannaMarie 1:30:55

Depends on how you murder them, because most of the time you murder wildlife that you don’t like with poison.

Ron 1:31:04

That’s true. But also like, I don’t know how you could do that and just contain it to only poisoning the geese.

GiannaMarie 1:31:12

It never is only contained to what you wanted.

Ron 1:31:17

Exactly, and they only want to get the geese. They don’t want to like — anyway. Um, so at another town hall meeting. Um, there’s — lemme find it. I have the page open, I just — oh. So Addie is petitioning again about this issue. And they’re like, well, the plaque or a statue would be like, way too expensive. And Keedie says, “‘Well, what about the budget?’ Mr. McIntosh almost chokes upon a laugh of pure disbelief. ‘That budget,’ he takes in a deep breath, ‘is meant for seriously important village matters!’ ‘What, like the pig race?’ Keedie snaps back.” And then Mr. MacBride in the background, “‘Oi! Carruthers is a five time national champion! He brings a lot of people together when he wins a race! He’s going to the Highland show this year!!’” [both laughing]

GiannaMarie 1:32:20

Something that I kept thinking about this entire book is that Addie is like, the perfect target demographic for Wikipedia. Like, like a phone that just does Wikipedia and calls. It would be her heaven. I like, couldn’t figure out when this book was set. So I was like, maybe they don’t have smartphones. But then she — but Keedie has a phone she has a she has a mobile phone at one point. So I don’t know why I was worried about when this is set. Her sister is like, an Instagram influencer.

Ron 1:33:00

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 1:33:01

What is going on? [both laughing] I was like, maybe this is in the 80s or something! They don’t have phones? I don’t know why she doesn’t look any of this stuff up on the internet! [laugh]

Ron 1:33:11

Because she’s a child who hasn’t aged up enough for the parents to grant phone yet. Um, another funny one, and a good exchange between like Addie, and Audrey. So there’s a class trip. “Miss Murphy tells us to grab a partner and stay in two neat lines. ‘I’m going with Jenna,’ Emily says, her face right up close to my own. ‘My BEST friend.’ I lean back, drawing myself away from her closeness. ‘I can smell your breakfast, Emily.’ Audrey laughs heartily and stands next to me at the back of the line while Emily flounces off. ‘That was funny.’ ‘I didn’t mean it to be funny,’ I tell her truthfully. ‘I have…’ I flick through my mental thesaurus. ‘Acute senses.’ ‘Cute senses?’ ‘Acute.’ ‘What does that mean?’” And then like, Addie explains what it means. [laughing] “Cute senses?”

GiannaMarie 1:34:16

Do you know — ?

Ron 1:34:16

Also, just roasting her without even meaning to.

GiannaMarie 1:34:20

I am remembering now? that my…kindergarten and first grade best friend was named Jenna. And she ditched me. When we…went to first grade? Like there was a like, not a new girl but a girl that we hadn’t known before. And because I was a pushover unless someone was like, being actually hurt, as a child, I recall agreeing that I would get to be Jenna’s best friend on days when the other girl was out sick. [sigh, long pause]

Ron 1:35:10

At least that happened to you when you were a child. Someone tried to do that to me when I was in high school.

GiannaMarie 1:35:16

What???

Ron 1:35:17

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 1:35:24

Did you fall for it?

Ron 1:35:26

No.

GiannaMarie 1:35:27

Well, that’s better! Cuz I was…all in.

Ron 1:35:30

But they were more like, sneaky about it. So it took me a minute to figure out that’s what they were doing.

GiannaMarie 1:35:38

People suck.

Ron 1:35:40

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 1:35:41

Also, this book just like, made me think so much about what it — like, what kind of person I would be if I like, had not grown up masking. Like, if I had had someplace safe to be —

Ron 1:36:06

Mm-hmm.

GiannaMarie 1:36:06

Like, safe to be neurodivergent. Like, I don’t know if I would be like, a drastically different person. But I feel like — I feel like I would be different than I am now. I feel like you would be different too. Because you are also quite weird. [both laughing]

Ron 1:36:40

I also feel like in this story, Addie figures out the secret to having friends if you’re like, one of the weird kids, which is the secret I figured out long ago, which is that if you’re one of the weird kids, you simply need to collect all the other weird kids. Like, if you’re sitting at a party, left out, that like, I don’t know, your parents dragged you to or something. Or like, you have one friend and they like — this is literally how I became friends with Mary, is like, I only really had one super close friend at the time that I had recess, like at the same time as, um, but she started hanging out with another girl that we didn’t like. And Mary also didn’t like this girl and also had no one to hang out with because the only person Mary would sometimes hang out with was the same person I would sometimes hang out with. So then Mary and I were both sitting around, left out and we were like, Hey, what’s up? [laugh] And then our other friend realized the girl she was hanging out with sucked. And so then we were a trio. It was great.

GiannaMarie 1:37:51

Um, is that the girl that had to go to the vet with her dog, during the — ?

Ron 1:37:57

No.

GiannaMarie 1:37:58

You were talking about a trio of best friends. And you were very angry about the excuse being that she had to take her dog to the vet.

Ron 1:38:05

Oh, no, Mary was the one who said she had to take her dog to the vet.

GiannaMarie 1:38:08

Oh my god, Mary!

Ron 1:38:09

I was like, Oh, she — I have to take Rosie to the vet, like, it’s really important. And like my mom’s stressed out, so I want to be there.

GiannaMarie 1:38:18

Mary, you gotta do better work.

Ron 1:38:20

[laughing hard] I know!! I think — the reason she said it was just because technically it was true, because she was like, slightly late to the party because of having to — also, listeners if you’re confused what we’re talking about, just go back and listen to the first like, 10 to 20 minutes of last week’s podcast — or last episode, I mean, it was two weeks ago, but like, yeah.

GiannaMarie 1:38:52

Okay, do we have any more like, good — good bits, aside from the fact that they’ve filed a complaint against Miss Murphy and gotten the plaque and they are — and they are going to have another meeting with Emily’s parents?

Ron 1:39:15

Page 52. So Addie is upset. I remember — I don’t remember exactly why at this point. Oh, it’s because of rejection dysphoria, at the point that she thinks her sharks have been rejected. But — “a tear drops and lands on the face of a zebra shark. I quickly wipe it away. No horrible, awful rubbish day is worth damaging a library book.” [both laughing]

GiannaMarie 1:39:41

Yes, yes yes yes yes.

Ron 1:39:45

This is more just like a sweet thing. So after there’s that whole trip that goes really badly, where the guy says the graphic descriptions of like, witches being tortured and Addie is like, I don’t like this. Um, afterwards, Addie and Audrey go on a walk through the woods. And like, Audrey is like, we can take the long way around, so we don’t have to walk by that specific place and like the tree that we know was involved in some of these horrible things. And like, Addie’s like, Oh my god, that’s so nice. Like most people never even think about stuff like that. And I didn’t even have to say anything. And she did this for me. Like, Audrey’s just awesome.

GiannaMarie 1:40:28

Audrey is an excellent example of a pretty normal child who w-when exposed to some kind of disability, just like, quickly and easily adapts —

Ron 1:40:40

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 1:40:40

— because that’s actually what children do —

Ron 1:40:43

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 1:40:43

— if you don’t teach them to hate people.

Ron 1:40:46

Mm-hmm!

GiannaMarie 1:40:46

Like it’s — it’s actually a really it’s — it’s a — it’s a thing that children do all the time. It’s a very possible thing.

Ron 1:40:57

Also literally, like, the inciting incident of their friend- their like, friendship is like because Jenna hasn’t been hanging out with Addie lately. Addie’s like, I guess I’ll go ask Jenna if she wants to hang out, like, just in case like it’s just a misunderstanding because we haven’t talked to each other. And so Addie comes up to Jenna, who’s also sitting with Emily and is like, “‘do you want to have lunch on the grass with me today?’ I ask both of them, even though I don’t really know Emily.” And Jenna’s like, uhhhhh, and Emily’s like, [prissy voice] “‘No, she doesn’t. She doesn’t want to have lunch with you, Addie. No one does.’” And then — [finger snaps] — Audrey is right there, and she’s like, “I do.” [laughing]

GiannaMarie 1:41:42

I cannot imagine how you would translate that tone into a little girl’s Scottish accent.

Ron 1:41:52

[hard laughter]

GiannaMarie 1:41:54

Um, Audrey gives —

Ron 1:41:57

I’m not going to attempt a Scottish accent, it would just be offensive!

GiannaMarie 1:42:01

Audrey gives Addie replacement thesaurus at the end of the book because she feels so bad about what happened to the thesaurus that Keedie gave her and she’s like, this one has Scottish words in it! [laughing]

Ron 1:42:16

Yeah, cuz earlier Addie was also saying that she was a little disappointed that she didn’t have alternate terms for Scottish phrases. Also, I forgot the best part of this. So Audrey’s like, “‘I do!’ ‘Well!’ Emily turns to Audrey. She doesn’t seem as confident now as she was a moment ago. ‘Nobody asked you — nobody was talking to you.’ ‘Yeah, you’re right,’ Audrey responds, moving past Emily and looking her up and down. Exactly like Emily had done to me. Nobody was talking.’” [laughing hard]

GiannaMarie 1:43:01

There’s a nice variety of the positive savage that little girls can be.

Ron 1:43:04

[shouting with laughter] And then Jenna is like — Jenna’s like, “she’s calling you a nobody, Em!”

GiannaMarie 1:43:09

I’m glad that was included, because I did not get the joke.

Ron 1:43:14

I think it is definitely necessary because it’s like a book, cuz I got that — that was — that was what was happening, but I think cuz it’s like, not something you’re visually like seeing and hearing. It’s definitely like, harder to understand that’s what’s going on. But also it just makes it better because then Jenna’s like, I’m going to explain how you were just humiliated! [both laughing] I also really like that at the end, Jenna is more like, definitely at a place where she can grow from as she gets older, I think, because she realizes Emily’s shitty. And she kind of tries to like get in good with Addie again. But Addie basically explains like no, like, you never cared about the things I cared about, even when we were friends. And like, I don’t need someone to be like me to be friends with me. I need someone to stand up for me and support me. If they’re going to be friends with me and you never did that. So goodbye.

GiannaMarie 1:44:23

Addie’s is an icon.

Ron 1:44:25

Yes.

GiannaMarie 1:44:28

All right. What are we recommending?

Ron 1:44:31

Um, so the only one — but this is like a — good one that I recommend is — that like really strongly came to mind, was Song for A Whale. It’s also a middle grade book about a disabled main character. In that case, the Deaf character. We’ve also read it on the podcast. So if you missed that episode, go back and check it out because it was really good and the main character also has an intense love for marine life. Specifically whales.

GiannaMarie 1:45:06

I’m going to say that Iris’s love outstrips Addy’s love.

Ron 1:45:13

Yeah.

GiannaMarie 1:45:14

And it’s hard to admit it. But I think it’s true.

Ron 1:45:18

I think Iris’s love for whales and like, Addie’s conviction about witches are like, slightly more on the same wavelength.

GiannaMarie 1:45:29

Yes. The vulnerable.

Ron 1:45:34

The scale is a little bit smaller of the like, grand gesture to my special interest scale, is a little bit smaller.

GiannaMarie 1:45:43

Well, the witches aren’t time sensitive.

Ron 1:45:46

Yeah, the witches are not time sensitive and are also local. So the whale is not local and is also time sensitive.

GiannaMarie 1:45:57

Um…I? Well, for nonfiction, I’m going to recommend the 2016 documentary Sonic Sea, which is about noise pollution, because Addie keeps thinking about sharks being alone underwater in the quiet and how overwhelming it must be to have like, your senses overwhelmed down there, and I was like *wipes tear* Oh, Addie, you don’t even know the half of it. [laughing] Um, so I definitely recommend that because it it’s it is very informative, but um, not like, exploitative. And I think the other thing I’m going to recommend because we — Oh, well obviously we want to recommend Show Us Who You Are by Elle McNicoll. Um, I’m going to say we could probably recommend books by Corinne Duyvis, who is autistic and has written at least two books with autistic main characters. I’ve read some of their work before and enjoyed it a lot. But the the thing that I’m really going to recommend is — both the book and the comic for Unstoppable Wasp. There’s two short comic runs. So I think less than four volumes total by Jeremy Whitley. And there’s a book called Unstoppable Wasp: Built on Hope by Sam Maggs, and there is the main character it has bipolar. So not exactly the same thing. But she’s, she has a lot of similar experiences. And is a very lovable bean. So. And it’s also like, really, really excellent, um, mental health representation like, it’s — it’s very well respected by the community and well researched and respectful, so. Please recommend autism books to us because we would — we would really enjoy that. Anything else?

Ron 1:48:29

I think that’s it.

GiannaMarie 1:48:31

No new business?

Ron 1:48:34

What?

GiannaMarie 1:48:35

I was making a joke about the town hall.

Ron 1:48:38

Oh…

GiannaMarie 1:48:38

[sigh] Whatever.

Ron 1:48:41

Completely went over my head.

GiannaMarie 1:48:43

Didn’t make any sense because this whole podcast was new business. Um, anyway, I think that that, that that wraps it up. In conclusion, five stars, very highly recommend. Read it. But also, please take care of yourself and only read it when you know that you can handle it. Because it is very heavy. Any parting words?

Ron 1:49:19

Live long and prosper.

GiannaMarie 1:49:23

And those are also Jewish words! [both laugh] We love Jewish creators. I guess that could be it. Well — we will. Oh my god. I don’t think we ever said I was autistic. I’m autistic. But I don’t know until I was 18. [both laughing]

Ron 1:49:46

I — I don’t know!

GiannaMarie 1:49:50

I think I talked about really vibing with all of this, and I never mentioned that I was autistic!

Ron 1:49:58

I’m not sure, you might — you may not have? We have listeners who’ve been listening for a while they —

GiannaMarie 1:50:07

They’ll know, yeah.

Ron 1:50:07

Yeah, they should know that.

GiannaMarie 1:50:08

Um, and within 48 hours of me self diagnosing, [laughing], I…left — dropped out of school and left the state.

Ron 1:50:21

And disappeared off the face of the earth for several months.

GiannaMarie 1:50:24

We’ll refer you to our episode on Loveless for that story. [both laugh] Cuz it’s, it’s like a star crossed friendships. All right. Goodbye from autistic and ADHD podcasters.

Ron 1:50:44

Peace out and prosper. [both laughing] Bye.

GiannaMarie 1:50:50

Bye.

Annaliese 1:50:52

Hello, everyone. Thank you for listening to this week’s episode of Something Old, Something Debut. I hope you enjoyed it. If you would like to contact us on social media or Instagram is @some_old_some_debut, and our Twitter is @debutold. The song that I would like to recommend to you guys this week is Fantasia in D Minor by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, who is widely believed very likely may have been autistic. As usual, that song will be available on our music wrecks playlist on Spotify, which you can find by going to our Twitter and clicking the link in our bio. Also, transcripts are available. If you would like to read a transcript of this or any episode, they will be available on Medium, which you can find by clicking the link in any of our social media bios. That’s it for this week. Stay safe and healthy and we’ll see you in two weeks for a new episode. Bye.