Something Old, Something Debut Episode Transcript: Interview with AJ Sass, Author of ANA ON THE EDGE
SPEAKERS
Andrew Sass, GiannaMarie , Annaliese, Ron
[guitar intro, book pages flipping]
Ron 00:11
Hello, welcome to Something Old, Something Debut, the podcast where we talk about new and old books that we think you should know about. I’m Ron, and I use he and they pronouns.
GiannaMarie 00:21
And I’m GiannaMarie, and I use she/her pronouns.
Andrew Sass 00:24
And I’m Andrew Sass, I write under my initials AJ, I use the pronouns he and they, and today we’re going to talk about my book Ana on the Edge.
Ron 00:36
Yaaaay! But first, as usual, we have our little warm up questions, and we get to do the fun ones, because it’s an interview. So. The first one —
GiannaMarie 00:48
Usually, we say sometimes, like, get to know your questions, and we’re like, ah, they already know us. But they don’t know you! So it’s extra fun today.
Ron 00:57
[laugh] So. What are we currently reading?
Andrew Sass 01:03
Oh, I just finished two books, actually. And they’re both queer books that kind of skirt the line between upper middle grade and lower YA and they take a very different approach to queer experience, so. I just finished an advanced reading copy of The Passing Playbook by Isaac Fitzsimons, which is being marketed as YA, but the main character is 15. So on the lower end. And then I finished the graphic novel Flamer by Mike Curato, which I’m not actually sure what is being marketed as, Mike was on my YALLWEST panel, and the main character Aiden, is 14. And of the summer between middle school and high school, and it’s — both of them were really fantastic books. But Isaac’s book, The Passing Playbook, kind of took a joyful approach to queer identity, where as Flamer, with Mike Curato’s book, I think was semi autobiographical and like, not fully, but the main character is drawn from Mike’s experiences growing up, closeted and queer in the mid 90s. So obviously, the atmosphere with queer people in the 90s was not quite as open and accepting and the book reflected that in a really wonderful way.
Ron 02:17
Both of those are on my list, but I have not read them.
Andrew Sass 02:20
Yeah, definitely recommend — Well, to be fair, The Passing Playbook’s not out yet, but on June 1st it will be, so.
GiannaMarie 02:20
I have not heard of either of those.
Ron 02:24
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 02:28
I’ve been going — a little overboard with um, with how much I’ve been reading? Because I just finished my like, last real semester of school, I still have two ~intensive summer courses ~
Andrew Sass 02:42
Almost there. Almost there.
GiannaMarie 02:44
I have a couple of weeks off. I’ve — I’m currently reading, um, G. Willow Wilson’s Wonder Woman. Um, so I’m very excited because I love G. Willow Wilson and I — I’ve been talking about Wonder Woman on this podcast for so long, because I wanted to read Gail Simone’s Wonder Woman, which was from 2006 to 2011. And I was like, well, naturally, I need to go back to the most recent reboot of Wonder Woman, which was in 1987. So I read all of these Wonder Woman comics that I hated from 1987 to 2006. Let me tell you, the late 90s were a bad time. And — Gail Simone’s Wonder Woman is fantastic — I’m a Wonder Woman person now. Things changed. I — I — I was not — I didn’t get it before, but I got it now. So, um, G. Willow Wilson started writing her in 2019? 18? I don’t know. Recently. I’m very excited. I just started on that. I’m also reading [laugh] Felix Ever After by Kacen Callender, um, which I’m like, just over halfway through, um…I cannot imagine how this book ends happily. I’m so stressed. I know Ron is like, it’s pretty fluffy, I think you’ll like it! So. I’m — I’m — I’m working on it. Because we really we did a Kacen Callender book on the podcast before and that was a miserable read, because it was so…scary. And heavy.
Andrew Sass 04:15
Which one was it?
GiannaMarie 04:17
It was, um —
Ron 04:18
Queen of the Conquered.
GiannaMarie 04:19
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 04:19
Oh, I haven’t read that one.
Ron 04:21
Yeah, we loved it. But it is like, incredibly, incredibly heavy and one to go into completely aware of the trigger warnings.
GiannaMarie 04:29
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 04:30
Just seeing the cover, I can totally see that being a heavier read.
GiannaMarie 04:33
Oh my god, it’s —
Andrew Sass 04:34
Like the cover’s amazing. But yeah, it’s definitely not reading as fluffy to me.
GiannaMarie 04:42
I…don’t know that there is a single joke in the entire book. Um.
Ron 04:48
Yeah. [laugh]
GiannaMarie 04:49
I mean, we recommended it very much, but. I’m — I’m enjoying Kacen Callender’s range. And then I’m also reading Ahsoka by Kate — by EK Johnston, and I’ve been sending all of these querying texts to Ron because — I hate Star Wars. But I love EK Johnston. So I — I have not watched any of the prequels, any of the TV shows, I’ve barely seen the movies, and I don’t remember them because they were boring, and I watched them with an ex boyfriend. And I like, [laughing] Oh my god, I got this for sale. Like, like really marked down. And I was like, it’s an EK Johnston book, I’m sure I’ll love it! But it’s definitely the vibe of like, ooh, you’re a really great fanfiction author, but now you’re in a new fandom, and I know that I love your work, so I’m going to follow you even though I have no idea what this fandom is. Except, you know, she — that’s how she’s making her money, so she’s doing a much better job than the rest of us. She makes her money in the Star Wars books. I always look for her — I’m very excited for her, um, Aetherbound is coming out on May 25. I love her original fiction so much. I’m the only person who loves her original fiction more than her …Star Wars. But. Anyway, I read too many things at the same time. And I can guarantee you that I will finish one of the books tonight. I’m just completely gone. What are you reading, Ron?
Ron 06:18
Okay, so I get to brag about also being partially, like I just started it yesterday, I’m like two chapters in — to a book that’s not out yet! And I’m very excited because it’s Linsey Miller’s What We Devour.
GiannaMarie 06:32
Wait a second!
Ron 06:33
I got a paper arc. I’m so excited. It makes me feel fancy.
GiannaMarie 06:37
Didn’t — wait a second!! I thought you wanted to talk about that one on the podcast!
Ron 06:41
Yeah, I do, but we read the whole book before anyway. So I want to actually be able to read a view — er, leave a review before it comes out.
GiannaMarie 06:49
Wait, so you’re reading it now, without me?
Andrew Sass 06:52
Uh-oh!
Ron 06:53
Because you can’t read it.
GiannaMarie 06:55
But what?? What??? [laughing]
Ron 07:01
I already — I think you forgot, but I said I was going to read it so that I could review it before it came out. And then we could still read it for the podcast. I’m not just gonna take an arc and then not…use it.
GiannaMarie 07:12
Alright, okay, use your other book reviewing power, and go do good in the world. I’ll just… be here left out.
Ron 07:21
The other book that I’m reading, this is more of my like, “I can’t sleep.” Or like, just “I don’t know what else to do” book is The First Rule of Punk by Celia C. Perez
Andrew Sass 07:39
Got that back there somewhere.
Ron 07:40
Which is a middle grade about a girl who has to move to a new school, and she’s super into punk and making scenes and stuff and on the first day, immediately, like, is seen as an outcast because she shows up very punk. But later on, according to the back, she’s going to make friends and start a band. So that’s exciting. And then my other book that I’m reading, which is more of like my main read right now, is Lost in the Never Woods by Aiden Thomas.
GiannaMarie 08:12
Mmm! That’s on my list.
Ron 08:15
Which, as soon as I finish reading it, I will be lending it to Annaliese our editor, because they love Peter Pan retellings. So.
GiannaMarie 08:26
I thought you were going because y’all live an hour and a half away from each other and can actually swap books. [both laugh] I haven’t seen Ron since International Women’s Day 2019. Oh my gosh. [laugh] I flew to Buffalo to watch Captain Marvel. We watched it twice that weekend and went to a convention and it was fantastic and very cold, and I have not seen him since then.
Andrew Sass 08:52
That’s a long time.
GiannaMarie 08:54
I know!
Andrew Sass 08:54
I know it’s been a long time but just mentioning 2019, it feels like a decade ago.
GiannaMarie 09:00
Last year feels like several years.
Andrew Sass 09:03
Yep.
GiannaMarie 09:04
Like, at least two. Maybe three. [laugh] Time is broken. Okay. Are you watching anything good, Andrew?
Andrew Sass 09:15
One show, yeah, we — I have not been watching a lot of television or film stuff lately, but my partner and I’ve been watching Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist, which I think? Is on NBC. I don’t — I don’t have cable, so it’s on one of the main stations but. Have either of you watched that?
Ron 09:34
I’ve seen a couple episodes because my girlfriend’s mom watches it. But I always -
GiannaMarie 09:38
I hate musicals very much, [both laughing] so I did not go into this, but I’ve heard great things.
Ron 09:44
I’ve heard that it’s good, but it just bugs me that every — at least every episode I’ve seen, they only use like, really popular songs. Yeah. That’s true. And I’m like please! You use so many — there’s so many musical numbers. You could pull out some really interesting, like, songs that nobody’s heard of. But.
Andrew Sass 10:01
Yeah. And like, introduce people to new music would be great, too. But —
Ron 10:04
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 10:05
I mean, like, the premise is completely absurd for anyone who has not watched the show. She goes and gets an MRI, and she’s in San Francisco, so of course, there’s an earthquake in the middle of her MRI, which somehow messes up the machine and gives her this magical ability to hear people’s thoughts through musical numbers or something. It’s like, not science fiction, because there’s like, literally no rules to it. But — but yeah.
GiannaMarie 10:30
That’s very comic booky. I — I — I like it. [both laughing]
Andrew Sass 10:35
Yeah, I mean, it’s weird. But it also for some reason, works somehow? And, like, honestly, I feel like with most of these types of shows, the main character is like, whatever, they’re there because they’re pretty or they’re handsome, or whatever. But you always get more kind of attached to the secondary characters. And there is this character who’s her — I guess, apartment-mate, they both live in the same apartment complex, named Mo, who uses any pronouns, and has this really nice coming out story, because Mo’s very religious and goes to a church in San Francisco. And they sing in the choir there, but they’re not out as I guess non-binary, I’m not really sure if they ever use a specific term for Mo’s identity. But they’re male presenting at church and very femme everywhere else, and I honestly think that’s kind of the star of the show is that storyline, which I feel like so many queer storylines kind of get thrown as — thrown in as like, secondary plots. And it’s just really great. So I really love it.
GiannaMarie 11:32
I’m irritated just listening to this, because — why on earth do we have a show about a girl who’s like, got some kind of MRI brain damage, where she hears popular music, when there’s that story happening??? [all laughing]
Andrew Sass 11:44
When there’s Mo. Yeah. But. There’s a love story happening, of course, with two guys. That’s just like, how it works. But yeah, Mo is way more interesting and deserves a spin off show of their own. So that’s my tea.
GiannaMarie 11:57
I recommend following me in the decision to never consume media with love triangles ever again.
Ron 12:04
[laughing]
GiannaMarie 12:05
Because I decided not to for fantasy YA and it’s improved the quality of my life a lot. Um, Ron and I are watching Umbrella Academy, which is Ron’s like, second favorite show? Because The Magicians is like the top favorite of all time. Because my 11 year old cousin, she threw me a bone when she found out that I had watched My Hero Academia. She was like, I’ll text her I guess. And she was like, I recommend Umbrella Academy. and I was like, Oh, that’s on the list to watch with Ron! Ron! Drop everything! We’re watching this now, before she gets tired of me, I have to text her back! [both laughing] So like our plans for after this interview was like, watch as many Umbrella Academy-s until I fall asleep. [laughing]
Andrew Sass 12:53
I mean, that sounds like a valid choice to me. I haven’t watched it yet, but I’ve heard great things about it. That’s the one with Elliot Paige in it, right?
GiannaMarie 13:00
Yes!
Ron 13:00
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 13:01
I — actually Ron was laughing at me so hard, because we only watched one episode, right? It’s kind of like from Elliot Page’s perspective, but I’ve only ever seen Elliot Page in the — the original X-Men trilogy.
Andrew Sass 13:14
Oh, yeah. That was a while ago.
GiannaMarie 13:14
So like, I heard that — I heard that he was a great actor, right? Like all of the like, all the respect, like all of these movies and stuff, and like, I knew about the show. And I was like, I know that Ron would have complained about acting if it was a problem. But like when I watched this, I was like, oh my god, he can act!
Andrew Sass 13:32
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 13:32
I didn’t know about this! This is not the way it came off in the X-Men movies! This is so astonishing! And I’m also — Ron recommended to me Hilda, which is much more in my wheelhouse because it’s for like, eight year olds. It’s sooo cute. I mean, I didn’t want to watch it because it looked annoying, but Ron really should have said that it’s just like a little British girl who’s very ADHD and used to live literally in the wilderness with like, just her and her mom and a house by themselves. And now she has to go into a city and she’s like….I don’t like capitalism. [both laughing]
Andrew Sass 14:10
[laugh] I mean, who does, really, Hilda?
GiannaMarie 14:13
She’s such an icon. I love her so much. It’s like my “Oh, no, can’t sleep, anxious” show now. I’m rationing it out very carefully. It’s so cute! Oh, my God. Okay, I’m done.
Ron 14:29
I’m Hilda’s the most recent one that I finished. And then I was like, GiannaMarie watch it. And also Annaliese is the one who got me to watch it. So Annaliese is very much here, although they’re not here. [laugh]
GiannaMarie 14:43
I didn’t remember that. It was Annaliese. I thought it was um, Aimee or something. One of your other friends who had watched it. I should have been texting Annaliese about my reactions this whole time! For example, Hilda has an adorable tiny beret, but she keeps getting in situations where the beret will pop off of her head and then go right back on to the spot where it was, like she’ll run, and the beret will bounce, and it’ll bounce right back onto her head like, like, it’s — it’s such a skill. She’s a fashion icon. [laughing]
Ron 15:13
And then the other thing is that — related to GiannaMarie’s, uh, Star Wars adventure.
GiannaMarie 15:20
[hard laughter]
Ron 15:21
My girlfriend and I just started watching The Clone Wars, like, cartoon show, and we have not gotten far enough into it to form any kinds of opinions about it. But. That’s what I’m watching.
GiannaMarie 15:33
All I know is that Ahsoka is traumatized. Okay, I’ve been waiting for this one. So a lot of the plot in Ana on the Edge revolves around anxiety about the free skate program. And I was definitely, like, vicariously furious that Ana doesn’t have like, very much autonomy? In her…whole life, her sport is her life. Like, like other people make all of these decisions about what she’s going to skate, what music, what she’s going to wear, and I kind of hate that for her.
Andrew Sass 16:11
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 16:11
Um, it’s very sad. I was made very sad. Um, so if there were like, not that strict of rules, and you were just gonna like, do a performance and you had unlimited prep time and unlimited resources, what kind of free skate program would you design for yourself? This is the question for all of us.
Andrew Sass 16:35
This is so tricky, because you mentioned anxiety and I get major performance anxiety myself. So my gut would be to say, I wouldn’t do one because that would require me to be like, in front of people. And that freaks me out.
GiannaMarie 16:49
What if there were no people. Just for you. Just like, nobody.
Andrew Sass 16:53
That is —
GiannaMarie 16:54
You’re just like, I’m havin’ fun.
Andrew Sass 16:55
All right, well played. Honestly, like, I don’t have like a really defined idea, just kind of like these random snippets of pieces. Because my first thing is like, well, I would train for like a year and get all my jumps back, because the pandemic ruined that for me a little bit with all the ranks closing. So I — like, get jumps I’m proud of and like, other skills and stuff, but I would actually love Rohene Ward to choreograph a program for me. I don’t know if either of you are familiar with him. He — he was a fantastic competitor in his own right for years. He — he grew up in Minneapolis, which is where I skated too, so that’s how I’m familiar with him. But he has choreographed some amazing programs, most notably, I think, for Jason Brown in recent years. Like if anyone’s seen Jason Brown’s programs, they’re very intricate. And I honestly think he’s the only one who could perform this complex of choreography, but an idealized world, I would have unlimited resources and time to learn how to do the choreography that Rohene throws at me. His Instagram is also kind of fun, because he’ll share the choreography lessons. And he’s like, out there chasing the kids around and — “deeper edges! quicker turns!” You know, which probably would induce anxiety for me too. But um, —
GiannaMarie 18:11
Aww.
Andrew Sass 18:12
I — but, you know, perfect world, I wouldn’t be scared, it would be fun. And there’s this doc- I used to be really into documentaries, like maybe 15 years ago. And there’s this one called Wing Migration that literally follows the migratory patterns of birds for like 90 minutes and probably would have won the Oscar for documentaries if Bowling for Columbine hadn’t been up. And I love the soundtrack for it. So I would probably pick something off of that and skate to it, because it’s really like ethereal and pretty. And Nick Cave sings a song on it. It’s just, it’s like one of my favorite soundtracks. So that’s probably where I go with that.
GiannaMarie 18:54
What about you, Ron?
Ron 18:55
Mine is very different. My only impulse — So my approach to…and I guess this doesn’t quite fall inside — But I don’t care about the rules. It’s not going to be a solo program. It’s going to be a synchro.
GiannaMarie 19:16
Aww.
Ron 19:17
And my — sorry, I just saw a text pop up from my girlfriend saying there’s a new kid at her job. And I’m like, Oh, no, what’s about to follow this up! [laugh] Anyway. So I would do synchro and it would definitely be to a Lady Gaga song, because Lady Gaga is like, my favorite musical artist, probably.
Andrew Sass 19:41
That would be amazing.
Ron 19:42
Definitely the only — the only musical artists that I like, have every song of, and everything. Um, but specifically, I’d wanna do one of the songs that like isn’t constantly on the radio. I don’t know which one, I’d have to think about it for a long time. But — the most important part is, I would get to drop down from the ceiling to cue the music like when she dropped down from the ceiling [laugh] in the Super Bowl, when she like dropped out of the sky. [laughing] That’s it, that’s my only idea. But. [laughing]
Andrew Sass 19:45
I think it sounds pretty epic. And if anyone remembers, the Icecapades, I’m pretty sure they did stuff like that, with like people being lowered on wires from the ceiling. So it’s totally feasible too, like you could totally make that work.
GiannaMarie 20:35
[laugh] Um, I discovered after reading Ana on the Edge, that there is a small like, little intersection between, like, ~real~ figure skating and… such-and-such on ice, and that is, like, people who just flat-out do cosplays and skate, which is like, kind of like, if you went to your rink on Halloween, and everyone was dressed up?
Andrew Sass 20:52
Oh, wow.
GiannaMarie 21:10
Which they do here. At the rink that’s local to me. And I’ve — I’ve been like, planning this question since [laughing] before we read the book. So I would definitely — my very first cosplay and when I’m still very…with is Black Widow, like comics Black Widow. So I would probably definitely do something that’s like a classical ballet piece, but it’s like, much more like, violent choreography. Since it is not — it’s like, the — the rebelling against the ballet. I don’t know — I don’t have anything against ballet, but there’s a whole there’s a whole traumatic ballet backstory to Black Widow. [laughing] Also, I would have long sleeves and long pants. Full coverage for your wipe out!
Ron 22:01
This is just brought back memories of when I was like, doing skate school as a kid. And we were allowed to wear Halloween costumes as long as they were like, safe when we had lessons.
Andrew Sass 22:12
Yeah, a lot of skating clubs used to do that, like even on freestyle sessions on like, October 31, people will come in costume. I think — I’m pretty sure one of the kids came as Sarah Palin during like, the height of the election. [all laughing] It was amazing. Like totally satirical, but it was just like, completely amazing. And like how on point it was with like, the little bun, like the — eye, the glasses, exactly the same reading glasses she had or something.
GiannaMarie 22:42
There — I ran into a man that I took a photo of for Ron. Um, like, not last year, like, two years ago when I was going to school in the city. Um, there was just — a he was Mike Hot Pants. [laughing] And like — Mike, he was dressed like Mike Pence, but like, wearing like, really short shorts and had like, like a poster to donate to different charities.
Andrew Sass 23:12
I think I know who you’re talking about. If it was like one of those famous guys that like went viral over it or something, like the gay Mike Pence or something?
Ron 23:18
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 23:19
Oh, I don’t know.
Ron 23:19
I’m pretty sure you did. Yeah.
GiannaMarie 23:21
He didn’t have a crowd. He was just chilling it at the farmers market I walked through to go to class. [laugh]
Ron 23:29
I don’t know if it’s the same guy, but I have seen what you’re talking about. I think it might be the same guy? Or maybe there’s just a lot of Mike Pence doppelgangers. I don’t know.
GiannaMarie 23:41
Ummm.
Andrew Sass 23:41
[laugh] Could be.
GiannaMarie 23:43
Oh! “Mike Hot Pence wears no pants, comma, raises money for Planned Parenthood.” I think that there are several. I don’t think I met the famous one.
Ron 23:55
[laughing] Okay. So moving on to my random question. Um, so we’re all neurodivergent here in some way. So my question is, if you had to try and stage a filibuster, where you can just talk about a topic of your choice, but you’re not allowed to have any preparation…What would you talk about?
GiannaMarie 24:21
I mean, the only problem I have with this question is like, what kind of bill are we stopping? Like how…how high is the pressure?
Ron 24:29
It doesn’t matter. The point is, you just need to talk for as long as possible. Without stopping.
Andrew Sass 24:39
This is ridiculous, but also like made me think about it. [all laughing] I mean, I think like the obvious things for me would be figure skating, like, I could talk about that for a week straight. And like, reading obviously, too, um… I think my bigger concern is and to leave to use the bathroom, because I’m pretty sure you’re not allowed to do that, right?
Ron 25:02
No, you’re not allowed to leave at all.
Andrew Sass 25:04
Yeah, so I’d last about 40 minutes before I had to be out. But anyway. [all laughing]
GiannaMarie 25:11
I don’t think you’re allowed to sit.
Andrew Sass 25:14
Yeah, I’d be in so much trouble between like having to pee and like, my bum knee. It — it’d just be bad. But anyway —
GiannaMarie 25:22
Ron, are you allowed to, like, pace, or do you have to stand? Like, straight?
Ron 25:29
I don’t know.
GiannaMarie 25:30
This is critical. This is critical information you left out of the question!!
Ron 25:35
We’ll pretend you’re allowed to pace even if technically, that’s not allowed in real life.
GiannaMarie 25:39
If I wasn’t allowed to pace my — I would last like 10 minutes before I fainted. [all laugh] Okay, go ahead, Andrew, no more interruptions! [laughing]
Andrew Sass 25:52
Yeah, so realistically, it would be figure skating or reading, like, books, but or maybe even writing process, but like to be slightly more interesting too, maybe, maybe it’s more interesting? Who actually knows, but I can probably talk about ancient history for a really long time.
GiannaMarie 26:08
Ooh!
Andrew Sass 26:08
And like, the intersection between history and theology, I — I was an Ancient Near Eastern Studies major for a couple years in undergrad before they kicked me out of the program, because I was literally the only one in the major and they wanted to discontinue it. Um —
GiannaMarie 26:24
They didn’t kick you out! That’s so different, that your major being canceled is not a reflection on you personally!
Andrew Sass 26:31
I felt a little like I was being kicked out. But I mean, like, I tried to petition it. I was like, I’ll take — I think the main reason was because one of the requirements was that you take two semesters of a graduate level, ancient Near Eastern language, and they really didn’t offer anything anymore. So I was like, Well, what if I take, you know, like a semester of Ugaritic, which you have, and a semester of Coptic, and they were like, just pick a different major, dude. So I did. But at one point, I had — my poor history teacher thought probably thought it was a little bit ridiculous. But I at one point, I could give you all of the names of the rulers of various Ancient Near Eastern Kingdoms like Sumer and Akkad, Assyria, and I also had all of their ruling year chronologies memorized. So like after a certain point in history, we don’t actually know specific dates. I think it’s sometime after the 760s BCE. So historians kind of differ on whether or not, like, when things happened. And there’s like, an old, middle, and a new chronology and I actually had all the dates for each of the rulers memorized just like three different times. So yeah, I could probably go on for quite some time on that. And also talk about the various religions and like, tiptoe my way into like, like the New Testament period too, like, all of that kind of, from a historical context is very interesting to me, and I might win whatever bill I’m fighting to, like, get off the floor or whatever, cuz everyone will fall asleep. [all laugh] Yeah, what about you guys?
GiannaMarie 28:09
Ron is gonna guess mine, like instantly. So, go ahead, Ron.
Ron 28:16
Are you telling me to guess?
GiannaMarie 28:17
Yeah.
Ron 28:18
Um, a couple guesses…Jane Foster Thor?
GiannaMarie 28:22
[big giggles] Yes. [both laugh] Literally when I wrote my thesis on. But more widely, there are only like, 15 disabled female super heroes in like, 9000 trademarked characters between Marvel and DC. And I have like, possibly, like, 230 pages of research on them. Like, most of that on my own time?? I was really winding up for something and then didn’t have anywhere to go. [laugh] I have like, I have enough information to like, write a book. That was — that was the original plan, and then my then my school went bankrupt. So I had to go somewhere else. And they don’t let you write books. At the New School. For your thesis. You have to write like a paper or something. I was prepared. I was so prepared. [both laugh] Alright, what about you, Ron?
Ron 29:33
Um, so I think basically, what I would talk about is media that I do not like.
GiannaMarie 29:42
Oh my god, yes. You’re unstoppable.
Ron 29:44
Because I have — if I’m talking about things I like, I need it to be a conversation or else I have trouble like, figuring out where to go next. Like when we talk on the podcast, I obviously don’t really have a problem talking about the books that I enjoyed reading, but if I’m just like, trying to tell someone out of — about a book that I liked, my mind kind of goes blank a lot of the time because I’m like, What details do I tell this person that will make them want to read it?? But if I’m talking about something I didn’t like, I can just rant for hours.
GiannaMarie 30:16
Okay, so The Magicians books.
Ron 30:19
[laugh] I need to finish reading them. But yeah, there’s just a lot. I won’t — I won’t name all the ones that I could rant about, because um — I don’t wanna be mean.
Andrew Sass 30:31
Wait, so you like The Magicians tv show —
Ron 30:33
But if you got me alone, I will.
Andrew Sass 30:35
— but not the books.
Ron 30:36
But not the books.
Andrew Sass 30:36
Okay. That’s interesting.
Ron 30:37
Um, to basically briefly summarize some things that are not good about the books that they did a lot of work making better than the show is like — in the books, there’s one main character and he is like, an incel, basically?
Andrew Sass 30:54
Oh, no.
Ron 30:56
Um, and it’s supposed to be trying to do the thing where it’s like, we’re going to write about a male protagonist who like, is, like, dumb and gross and needs to grow up or whatever, but it just takes it way too far, where it’s like, no, this isn’t just someone who is like, young and learning. This is someone who has legitimate, like, bad parts of their personality that would require — way more than what you’re saying to change. I’m just also like, a lot of like, almost every single woman is described as either sexually desirable or, like, undesirable for a specific reason. Disability is handled badly. And also just a weird gross thing is how much — I’ve been reading — so I’ve never even made it through all three first books, I read the first one and I was like, never again, but then the show finished. And I was like, What else am I gonna do? I’m just going to read all three of these books and write copious notes roasting them in a private Discord. [laughing]
GiannaMarie 32:07
I’m not allowed in the Discord yet because I’ve only watched one season. [both laughing]
Ron 32:15
But like in the first book, there are so many things that are just like, weirdly idealizing Asian culture?
Andrew Sass 32:25
Oh no.
Ron 32:27
It’s so weird, like, describing the mysterious sexy woman with chopsticks in her hair. And like, throwing in oriental — oriental rugs in any place you want to seem interesting. And stuff like that. It’s just so weird. And I’m just like please stop.
Andrew Sass 32:41
— wider issue it sounds like with YA as a whole right now, if we’ve been following [inaudible] twitter stuff.
Ron 32:46
Well, this one actually isn’t — well, it’s — it’s about teenage characters — also another thing the show did that’s excellent is —
GiannaMarie 32:55
Aged them up.
Ron 32:55
The show is about grad students.
GiannaMarie 32:57
Yessss.
Ron 32:58
Which is so cool. And I wish more things were about grad students. Because then when you have like, a sexy show, and they’re actual adults, it’s like, okay!, instead of like watching Riverdale, and you’re like, please stop, like, these are supposed to be children. Um, anyway. But yeah, so the book is, like, more written for an adult audience, but it’s about teenagers.
Andrew Sass 33:24
Gotcha.
Ron 33:24
So it’s kind of marketed as adult and YA. But mostly adult, like, if you go to the, if you go to most bookstores, it’s in the adult section. So.
GiannaMarie 33:36
I’ve never seen it in a bookstore, and I hope never again.
Ron 33:41
Um…
GiannaMarie 33:43
Okay — !
Ron 33:43
Don’t pay attention when you go to Barnes and Noble, because it’s always there.
GiannaMarie 33:47
I’ve never seen it in any of the Barnes and Nobles here.
Ron 33:52
Anyway, moving along —
GiannaMarie 33:55
All right.
Ron 33:56
— to why we’re here today — [laughing]
GiannaMarie 33:58
I know, that was a long intro.
Ron 34:02
There was also a spider problem, so. [laughing] So before we move into questions, tell us a bit about yourself, and potentially stuff that we couldn’t get from just googling you or like reading the jacket of your book?
Andrew Sass 34:21
Sure. Yeah. I had to think about this, too, because I checked my website. And I feel like wow, I shared a lot on there. So I’m not actually sure initially what I wanted to say. But then I don’t think I’ve mentioned this very many places, but I’ve sort of been kind of on a trajectory my whole life to try to figure out what I’m passionate about. And I’ve followed a lot of what I thought other people wanted me to do. And it started when I was younger. So I do mention on my website that I’ve moved around a lot to various states, most of them in the upper Midwest and the South when I was a kid and now I’m out in California, obviously, but every time I moved, I would either be like, massively ahead or really behind in the curriculum at my new school, and —
GiannaMarie 35:06
[groan]
Andrew Sass 35:06
Yeah, super fun. And at the beg- is — not beginning, I guess it was like, midway through ninth grade I moved from Georgia back to Minnesota where my family had lived before. I ended up having to be homeschooled for a little bit to finish up the curriculum, because my Georgia high school was on a semester system. So I wanted to be able to get credit for my fall semester classes. But when I started at my Minnesota high school, I was randomly ahead in most things and like, behind in one subject, and ended up getting skipped a grade, from 9th to 10th grade, like in March. So I was a 10th grader for about three months. And then I moved on to college after that through my high school’s post secondary enrollment options program. So as a 15 year old junior in high school, I was in college and kind of a random fact is that I got my AA degree — my two year college diploma — a month before I graduated high school. So that was kind of a really weird situation. But then I went on to like, four years of college, like traditional college, and honestly, if I could afford to do it, I would probably be a perpetual student, because I really like learning about new things. But I was also not really sure what I wanted to do when I finished up with undergrad. And I feel like at the time that I was going to college, like the early 2000s, a lot of people were kind of in the same boat as me and my parents were like, well you know, figure skating and writing are great hobbies, but they might not pay the bills, so maybe study something that’s more financially lucrative, and they threw out med school and law school —
GiannaMarie 36:39
Ah!
Andrew Sass 36:39
— and I did not have the, the prerequisites to go to med school with the classes that I’d taken in an undergrad, though my Ancient Near Eastern history classes, so I ended up going to law school, and —
GiannaMarie 36:53
You went — ? Oh, my god!
Andrew Sass 36:54
I went to law school for three years. And the biggest takeaway I got from that is, although I find the law very fascinating, I don’t really want to ever be a lawyer. So I think like the most impulsive thing I did in my life was once I graduated from law school, I was like, sort of, screw this, I wanna be a writer, let’s see how I can find a way to be paid for my writing. So for the next 10 years, I was a tech journalist and an editor for a legal marketing firm, which was kind of law school adjacent. Before I sold Ana on the Edge. So I think that’s maybe something that’s on my website.
GiannaMarie 37:30
That’s so wild!
Andrew Sass 37:30
But yeah, I mean, I mean, there’s — there’s merit to what my parents told me to do, obviously, like, I’m sure they didn’t want to be supporting me when I was 40 or anything like that, because — I am also specifically with writing and it takes a long time to hone your craft and like, really develop your writing voice and stuff that if I’d maybe — tried to do that in undergrad, I might have sunk more than swum at that point. So, but yeah, I could do without the law school, the student loans. That would be fantastic. [all laugh] Aside from that —
GiannaMarie 38:03
I don’t — I do not know what it is about parents who are like, telling autistic people like, Oh, you’re so smart. The only options that are in the universe is you must be a doctor, you must be a lawyer like —
Andrew Sass 38:19
Yeah, I mean, to be fair to my parents —
GiannaMarie 38:21
— I cannot take that responsibility!
Andrew Sass 38:23
And my parents didn’t know I was autistic either, because that was a later thing that I learned about myself.
GiannaMarie 38:28
Same!
Andrew Sass 38:28
But also, like they wanted what was best for me. But I think ours was like the first generation too, that was like, Yes, we’d like to make livings but we also want to do things that we’re passionate about, we don’t want to spend our whole life working for someone else when we’re not happy with that work product. And I kind of hit that at the tail end, where I was like, I want to write for a living. But I also want to be able to pay rent in a very expensive city, because I was in San Francisco at the time. So I’m just trying to figure out how to balance both of those things was a bit tricky for me initially, but I’m here now. So yay!
Ron 39:01
Yaaaay.
GiannaMarie 39:04
That actually that does tie into a question that I had — so you had mentioned that you went to a bunch of — you lived in a bunch of different states, and —
Andrew Sass 39:11
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 39:11
— we’ve just heard about some sad parts of that. What’s like, a cool random fact about living in a bunch of different places. Like, a good thing.
Andrew Sass 39:24
Yeah, I think for the United States, specifically, since it’s such a large country, and I lived in so many different parts of it, is that it really feels like you’re moving to a different country like from, you know, like a small town in Minnesota to the metro Atlanta area. It’s a very different culture down there than there was in the Midwest. A lot of things are the same too. But it’s just different food, different way of talking sometimes, like, different accents. I remember when I moved to Georgia, and from the upper Midwest, if you were addressing a group of people, you’d say “you guys,” or if you’re from like, Chicago, you’d say “yous guys,” and I offended this group of girls….so deeply when I called them “you guys,” because they’re like, we are not guys! They use “y’all” down there. Or “you all,” if like, you want to, like spread out the word a little bit, but —
GiannaMarie 40:12
All of y’all?
Andrew Sass 40:13
Yep. All y’all. There — I mean, like there’s a whole conjugation to it.
GiannaMarie 40:15
Mm-hmm. [all laughing]
Andrew Sass 40:15
And I get into that in my second book, because that was — kid there from Georgia there. But yeah, it’s like all y’all there’s a possessive, “all y’all’s,” you can do — yeah, there’s like, you can add a lot of contractions to it, like you can just continue tacking contractions and apostrophes, on to the word, it’s very versatile. But I feel like every different place that I’ve been has had its own culture in that way, and I kind of wish I’d known more about my identity when I was younger, so that I could have delved into whether there was a queer culture there. But I really wasn’t into — into that until I was more of an adult. But I do think it’s really cool that basically, anywhere you live, you’re going to come up with a different culture, and you get to try different foods and stuff. Although I do feel like things have changed a little bit, because I was moving in the 90s. And I feel like growing up in like the small town Midwest, I wouldn’t have seen anything — like my parents, if they wanted to expand my cuisine horizons would go to Chevy’s and be like, here’s Mexican food. That was basically what I had growing up. But I feel like that’s changed a lot now, because I’ve been back to Minnesota since then, and like there — there’s more diversity there than when I was when I was growing up. So in terms of food, and different activities and stuff, that’s all changed. So maybe that’s not quite as exciting if kids nowadays are moving around places, but for me, that was kind of a fun part of moving.
GiannaMarie 41:36
That’s a cool answer. I — I resisted the y’all so hard until Ron came out to me. And then I was like, God damn it, I’ve been — I’ve been bested in — in the southern dialect by my love for my friends. [all laughing] So. I am a large, I’m a large user of the y’all now, but only — only in — only out of — only out of queer respect, not — not Southern respect. [all laughing]
Ron 42:15
Hmm. Okay. So you mentioned already, and this is just something that I was dying to ask, so I’m going to force a segue to it. [laughing] You mentioned, you know, writing projects that you’re working on right now. So, we obviously have looked into that, because we, you know, prepare for interviews instead of, you know, asking people to show up, and we’re just like, I don’t know. Anyway. [laugh] So one of your upc — [stuttering]
GiannaMarie 42:53
This segway is so bad, [both laughing] I… regret it so much for you.
Ron 42:59
One of your upcoming books is Camp Quiltbag. And other people might not know what that is. So maybe you want to preface your response with saying what that is. But it’s going to be a co-written the book, which was super interesting and exciting to us. So we were curious if you could speak a little bit about how you got into co-writing a project and what that experience has been like so far.
Andrew Sass 43:27
Yeah, sure. We’re actually still drafting at this point, because this was one of those projects that sold on proposal. So we wrote 50 pages and a synopsis, the dreaded synopsis, and then pitched it to editors we’ve worked with in the past. So we are actively in the throes of first draft right now. But yeah, the project’s called Camp Quiltbag, and it is middle grade contemporary project that is set at a queer youth summer camp, and it follows two characters, Kai and Abigail. Kai uses e/eir/em pronouns, and Abigail uses she/her/hers. And it’s alternating perspectives between the books and — er, between — between the two characters. And I’ve known Nicole Melleby, who’s the co-writer, for a couple years now, and there’s — what I think is kind of a fun backstory to that is Nicole was a little bit further along in the process when we first met. If you’re familiar with Pitch Wars at all, it’s a mentoring program for pre-agented authors. Nicole was a mentor for that in 2018. And I was a querying author then, and I actually submitted a portion of Ana on the Edge to Pitch Wars, and Nicole was one of the mentors I chose. So that’s how we initially connected, and she really liked the project, but I ended up signing with an agent before mentee announcements for Pitch Wars. And we just kind of texted a lot, like we don’t talk much outside of text, but we blow up each other’s phones like, regularly and we both love queer kidlat and we kind of critique partner for each other with new products and give each other feedback, and just chat about everything under the sun. And I think a couple of years ago, we’d mentioned it would be really cool if we could co-write a project. And it kind of died after that, because we were like, well, what would you write about? And both of us were like, I don’t know! So we kind of left it there. And then there’s an anthology project that is coming out that Nicole is a co-editor for with Katherine Locke, it’s coming out from canola on October 19. It’s called This is Our Rainbow: 16 Stories of Him, Her, Them, and Us. And just by some pure coincidence, the cover has my character Kai, who’s in a short story in this anthology, and her character Abigail, standing next to each other on the back cover looking at each other. And it’s super cute. And I think it was Nicole, who was like, maybe we should just write a story about these two. And they have nothing to do with each other.
GiannaMarie 45:56
Oh my god I love it!
Andrew Sass 45:57
Yeah. They have nothing to do with each other in the actual anthology and figuring out because Kai, I have Kai set in Minnesota, and e’s a former gymnast, and Abigail is in Central Jersey on the coast, which is where Nicole sets all of her books. So we had to figure out a way to get them together. And the queer camp scenario seemed to work best for that. And they’re both very different characters. And it’s more of a sibling relationship than any kind of romance going on. There’s a lot of crushes and stuff. It’s just not between the two main characters. So.
GiannaMarie 46:29
I adore everything about this so much, this story is amazing!
Andrew Sass 46:33
Yeah, it’s — a fun project.
GiannaMarie 46:35
I cannot wait!
Andrew Sass 46:37
Oh, I’m excited for it, too. I’m kind of sad that it’s not coming out until spring of 2023. But also it’s not written. So that’s probably for the best. But in terms of co-writing, yeah, we we started this before Ana published, I think right after Nicole’s second book, In the Role of Brie Hutchens, published last June. And she took the lead on the first chapter and then sent it to me. And then I wrote a chapter from Kai’s perspective, and we kind of went back and forth. And as the two characters converged at the camp, we started having to write each other’s characters a little bit more into our scenes. So then we got a little bit more active about, yeah, Kai wouldn’t say this, or, because — we — we have so many problems with poor Kai and the pronouns, because I realized I’d never actually pronounced the pronouns before. And now suddenly, we had to a lot. So we were messing that up, left and right. And I guess that’s gonna be a good lesson, when we have author talks together, with younger kids, that it’s okay to mess up pronouns, because even we did. And we’re still working to be better about that. But — but yeah, we have a Google Doc going and we leave copious notes for each other. Some of them are like, actually constructive and helpful and others are kind of ridiculous. They go on tangents like, “so storytime,” and then like, sort of related to what’s going on, but just like something that we thought of as we went, but it’s been really fun. I — before I was a published author, I did a lot of fanfic writing to kind of teach myself how to write a good story.
GiannaMarie 48:05
That sounds like this! This reminds me so much of like, really good times that I had with friends, like, ages ago.
Andrew Sass 48:11
Yeah. This is exactly what it feels like to me too. Like a collaborative thing.
GiannaMarie 48:14
You seem like you’re having way more fun than most people do in this industry, like with this project, which makes me feel like you are doing it very right.
Andrew Sass 48:23
Yeah. And it’s been a balm on my soul too, because I — and I don’t know if we’ll get into talking about this later, but my second standalone book was also sold on proposal and I had to write it in about a month, during the pandemic, while I was moving to a different city. So I — it was — it was a very painful experience for me, and very stressful. And this is the complete opposite of that. And I love both books, obviously. But this is just — this is kind of renewed my love for writing. And it’s nice to have someone who’s equally as invested in the story as you, because when you’re writing on your own, you’ve got people who will give you feedback, but they don’t know the story as well as you do, and with Nicole — she does. I mean, even if she doesn’t know exactly everything that’s going on on Kai’s end of things…She cares about it, because she wants the story to be good and obviously to like, connect it with Abigail’s plot arcs. So it’s been a really fun experience.
GiannaMarie 49:16
Okay, Andrew. Summer 2023. You, me, Ron, Nicole. We’re gonna read Camp Quiltbag, and have a chaotic interview.
Andrew Sass 49:26
Okay. [laugh] That sounds fabulous. And then like, we’re also hoping, because I — this is weird, but I didn’t even know queer camps existed until Nicole pointed it out, I was like, wait, that’s a thing? I sometimes I think I’m still living in like in the late 90s, early 2000s. And it just like that emoji with like, the huge eyes. That was basically me when I found out about that. So yeah, I —
GiannaMarie 49:49
I didn’t know —
Ron 49:49
I have a friend who’s actually going to be a counselor at a queer camp this summer and she’s so excited.
GiannaMarie 49:55
Wait who??
Ron 49:57
My friend Yardley, who lives with Annaliese.
GiannaMarie 49:59
Oh, that sounds amazing, I didn’t know that there — I literally didn’t know that these things existed until Ron pointed out a book that we have on our list for podcast books, which is Camp, and I can’t remember who wrote it —
Andrew Sass 50:11
L.C. Rosen. I just read his book, Jack of Hearts (And Other Parts), I think was another one I recently read. So I need to still read Camp. It’s coming out in paperback later this month. So I have that on pre order. But.
GiannaMarie 50:24
Ooh!
Andrew Sass 50:24
Yeah, we’ll see.
GiannaMarie 50:25
Yeah, I visited it in — I visited it in the shop on independent bookstore day. And I was like, Ron, it’s okay!! This one’s a banger! Like, because sometimes we’ll pick a book and then we’ll start reading and we’re like, oh, no, oh, no, no, no. [all laughing] But like, I peeked into it, and I was like, Oh, this is great! This is amazing, I’m very excited, let’s do it! Oh, wait, this was going to tie into — Oh, I did have a question that tied into what you said. So you’ve been trying to make your life work for a while, which is I feel the adult experience, apparently, I don’t know, maybe I’ll get there into the adult experience, we’ll find out. Um, and you had the really unfortunate luck to have your fantastic debut novel come out during this humongous crisis. So…how’s that? Because we don’t want to, like make the whole interview about pandemic misery, but also like, how are you doing? How is that for you?
Andrew Sass 51:29
Oh, goodness, I mean, luckily, I mostly finished up with my copy edits, and all of the editorial minutia with Ana like right before the pandemic hit. So I don’t really have any association with writing Ana and the pandemic, thank goodness. [laugh] But yeah, it was — it was a thing. I mean, I remember in the spring, when I got my marketing plan for Ana, it was four pages long. And three of those pages, detailed all of the conferences that my publisher plan to send arcs to and pitch the book. And I was like, are we gonna pivot at all? Like, because I don’t think any of these are happening now. And that’s been tricky. I know, my agent said just kind of, you know, hold up and hold your breath a little bit in terms of the launch party, because I’d had this vision to have it at the San Francisco rink, which is featured in chapter one of the book with Ana, because I still have friends who live there in a big adult community that would be supportive, and I just — didn’t really I’m kind of shy about being the center of attention. So I didn’t want to necessarily do a reading. But I thought, well, it’d be kind of fun if we could get like, a local indie bookstore there. And I could, you know, sign copies if people want, but mostly just rent the ice and have them go skate. And it wouldn’t be about me, it’d be about ice skating. And obviously, none of that happened because the rink shut down. So that was a bit of a bummer. Although the bright side is I’ve probably saved a ton of money not doing that. But it’s been tricky.
GiannaMarie 52:56
That sounds like it would have been a really fun time, though.
Andrew Sass 52:59
Yeah. And I was like, well, maybe it’ll happen for the paperback. I don’t think we’ll be there by October yet. But I don’t know. I’ll write another skating book down —
GiannaMarie 53:05
I was about to say!
Andrew Sass 53:06
I’ll literally have to write another skating book just so that I can have my ice rink debut launch party. But yeah, it’s been hard. I think the hardest thing was for the debuts because I was part of a 2020 debut group of middle grade and YA authors on Facebook. And I think a hard part of that was, in the spring, those debuts in the spring got hit much harder than me, because I knew what was coming in at that point after eight months of it. And I think for me, too, virtual events opened up a lot of opportunities that I wouldn’t have otherwise had, because I just don’t have the finances to be doing a book tour —
GiannaMarie 53:41
Yeah!
Andrew Sass 53:41
— for my contemporary middle grade book! So I got to connect with a lot of people and authors specifically I don’t think I would have ever gotten to talk to otherwise, and got to talk to readers that aren’t local wouldn’t have been able to attend events in person. I think that’s an accessibility thing, too, because I’ve never actually been to a book conference or any sort of in person things. So I don’t actually know what I’m missing there. But I know I went to YALLWEST last year as an attendee. And I just thought it was so cool that there were so many different opportunities to listen to authors talk. And I could just sit in my own living room and not have to worry about the overwhelm of noise and like fluorescent lights, and people brushing up against you and all that stuff, because I could control my own environment. So I think I’m like veering off topic a little bit, but —
GiannaMarie 54:31
No, I love how you like, turned it around into like, Hello, there are positive things about all of this access!
Andrew Sass 54:39
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 54:39
Like I definitely get you, like, I’m a person who loves conventions, but also like spends the entire time like, planning, like, Where is the bathroom? Like, where is the food? Like, what kind of backpack do I need to have to have this like, medicine and this water and this snack and like, what if — what if this happens? I’ll have a flashlight in there in case all of the lights go out, like, like, I totally get you, like it — I’ve, I like went to like five panels that Kristin Cashore did this year [laughing], it was the same thing over and over. Like, I definitely understand. There were good parts about this.
Andrew Sass 55:22
yeah. And I mean, screen fatigue is a real thing. But I know I think I saw some people on Twitter talking about how a lot of moderators at YALLWEST this year had said, Well, hopefully next year, we’ll be able to be in person and saying, Well, I hope there are — there’s also a virtual component because I either can’t afford or it’s not accessible for me to be at someplace in person, and I kind of…felt like that spoke to me too, because I’d like that option. I mean, even if I’m going to be at a place in person, I’m going to need some form of accommodation, so.
GiannaMarie 55:51
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 55:51
I hope that they’re thinking about stuff like that. But — but yeah, I mean, my parents got to watch my my virtual launch party, and they’re in Florida, so there’s no way they could have come for an in-person thing. So there were positives to it. And I think my publisher is aiming to kind of re-promote the paperback because a lot of debuts struggled with sales because bookstores weren’t open, or schools weren’t open for library purchases and stuff like that, so. We’ll — we’ll see how it goes. I’m really hopeful we’re on an upswing, but I’ll just kind of be a wait and see. I’m actually really hopeful that by the time Camp Quiltbag comes out Nicole and I can maybe visit queer camps as part of like a mini author tour —
GiannaMarie 56:32
Awww!
Andrew Sass 56:32
— cuz I think my heart would burst if I got to do that. So hopefully —
GiannaMarie 56:37
That’s amazing.
Ron 56:39
That would be cool.
GiannaMarie 56:43
That’s — that’s I love that so much. I am — I am desperate to read things by Nicole now. I’m like, if y’all are like this, I’ve — I’ve got to go read her books now!
Andrew Sass 56:55
Her books — she has a very different writing style than me, but it hits you in the feels so hard. Her debut was Hurricane Season, and it was just completely beautiful and lyrical. And In the Role of Brie Hutchens is the one that came out most recently. And that one had me I was actually traveling in 2019 when I read that one, and it had me laughing some chapters, and then I was just randomly bawling in like, a Greek marketplace during the coming out scene. It was so awkward, because I don’t speak a word of Greek and everyone’s like, is that dude okay?
GiannaMarie 57:25
Oh noo!
Andrew Sass 57:25
But I was reading it on my Kindle. And I was just like, this was just so wonderful! And like, I feel it deep down because like, the main character was not sure how her mom would react when she came out. And she came out in a very dramatic fashion because she wants to be an actress. [all laugh] So I would definitely recommend that book. It’s — it’s really wonderful. Nicole is very talented as a writer.
GiannaMarie 57:48
I’m…very excited.
Ron 57:51
So related to coming out, let’s say that — [laughing] and also moving into a question specifically about Ana on the Edge, because, you know, I guess that’s why you’re here.
GiannaMarie 58:04
I thought we were just hanging out, Ron, what are you talking about?
Andrew Sass 58:11
Just chattin’.
Ron 58:11
[all laugh] So…Ana obviously goes through a lot of trial and error with her coming out process and figuring out what to come out as, and obviously, at the end of the book doesn’t quite know, like, what pronouns and like, I assume later, like we talked about, in our episode about the book, that we hope Ana gets hooked up with some puberty blocking stuff. Because it seems like something that she would be into, but she hasn’t even, I think, heard of stuff like that at the end. And so it’s very much like, you know, she’s in the process — I mean, obviously, you know [all laugh] — but she’s in the process of figuring a lot out and like, it was not a very smooth like, oh, okay, I’m this! Now everything is solved! Type of coming out. And also, interestingly, we have Hayden, who was very much like, “Oh, I know exactly who I am. This is — this is just who I am, it was super easy for me to figure out” type thing. Um, so if you could talk a little bit about like, that representation and then also putting like, Ana’s type of coming out process next to Hayden’s experience and you know, that. [laugh]
Andrew Sass 59:31
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 59:32
Ron was deeply touched by the — the uncertainty of Ana’s experience, I — like, this book is very, very important to Ron, like, like ever since this, like, we’ve been heckling me, like, maybe this book is going to be my Ana on the Edge. Have not yet found the like, the soul book. Like, I don’t know how — [both laughing] Like, if books were soulmates, this one is Ron’s.
Andrew Sass 1:00:03
That means so much to me.
GiannaMarie 1:00:04
Like, I have no idea.
Andrew Sass 1:00:06
Yeah, I mean, I — I wrote this book, and obviously this is like, from a current perspective, not when I was a kid, more things were very different then, and I think Ana would have had even more obstacles to coming out within the sport. But when I was a kid growing up, I didn’t really see any narratives that kind of reflected what I was going through, which was “I don’t have a clue what I am.” I had like, this weird sense that I was queer when I was like 14 or 15. But it was a weird situation for me, because I knew I wasn’t attracted to women, and I didn’t know what transgender meant. So I was like, Why? Why do you think you’re queer if, like, you’re not a lesbian, because of — basically, I don’t even think bisexuality was talked about back then. And there just wasn’t vocabulary when I was growing up for what I was feeling. And then like, as a twofold sort of issue, the only narratives that I saw, even when I started wondering about my gender identity, were narratives of people who knew that they were a boy or a girl when they were like three years old. And I think that’s because it made the most sense for like, a cisgender heteronormative audience for like, a big newscaster, basically, if they were going to highlight a trans — trans character, a trans person, or a trans kid, they would go for the ones that have like the very, almost paint by numbers, you know, like, if it was a trans boy, “I tried to stand up and pee when I was three. And that was very hard. But I knew I was a boy back then.” And trans girls wanting to be very girly and wear skirts and stuff, and that wasn’t my experience, I didn’t — I mean, I didn’t even know, like being assigned female at birth, whether I felt female or not. It was just like, What does feeling female…mean? I didn’t know. And I think those experiences are completely valid if they were yours. It just wasn’t my experience. And that led to a lot of confusion about who I was, identity-wise. And I think a lot of that too, is tied up with being undiagnosed autistic at the time, I had a very hard time defining what I was feeling emotion wise, just in general. But in terms of gender identity, I really wanted to present this narrative where this character is in a location that’s very queer friendly, it’s clear her mom’s fine with queer people, her coach is queer. She’s familiar with the concept of the queer community, but she still doesn’t exactly know how she fits into it, because she doesn’t have the vocabulary that she needs to really define that for herself. And then enter Hayden, who knows who he is, and has known for a while, he’s very confident about his identity, and mistakes Ana for a boy, due to some, you know, like, wonderful narrative fiction, like, plot mess-up, in terms of the name tag at skate school, and just assumes Ana’s a boy. And Ana doesn’t correct Hayden initially, because being seen as a boy to her after she has been dealing with this new choreographer who wants her to perform a princess-themed program feels better than being seen as a girl, which is something that’s always kind of been a little bit prickly to her. It’s kind of like a bug bite where you don’t see the bug, you don’t know where it’s coming from. But you know it’s uncomfortable. That’s sort of what she’s going through whenever someone calls her Miss Ana, or even full names her, her full name is Ana Marie, and she doesn’t like the Marie part of her name. So I wanted to kind of give that contrast between two very different types of trans characters. They’re both trans, technically, but their experiences are completely different. And, as kind of a side note, too, I think, just because Hayden knows who he is, like, from a young age, doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s had it easy. I couldn’t really talk about it too much because it wasn’t Hayden’s story, but I have this whole headcanon for you know, Hayden’s background, and where he would be in the future, like at his new school and stuff. And his story is a little —
GiannaMarie 1:03:52
Feel free to tell us.
Andrew Sass 1:03:53
Okay. [laugh.] I know, that was another question you had, but I didn’t want to like, jump the gun here. [all laughing]
GiannaMarie 1:03:59
Okay, Hayden’s family was so great. We loved them. We want to know all about it.
Andrew Sass 1:04:03
Yeah. So Hayden’s family is sort of — it’s not drawn from mine, necessarily, but his family’s from the Midwest, from Minnesota, which is where I grew up. And there’s a lot of wonderful things about Minnesota, and especially the culture there of being welcoming. But in my head, Hayden — Hayden’s parents didn’t really have any background with the queer community, like Ana’s mom’s familiar, at least with Alex, her coach, and his husband Miles. But Hayden’s parents, in my head, wouldn’t have known what was going on when Hayden you know, started saying, “I’m a boy,” when he was younger. So instead of telling him that “no, you’re not,” they were like, okay, we have to figure this out. And in my head, they went to like, a gender therapist in the Twin Cities and realize that Hayden is trans and, and they were supportive in their own way. They were, you know, they were feeling things along as they went, but — and he never had any problems with his siblings. So it may be his extended family wasn’t as supportive. And I sort of kind of headcanon, the fact that he — he socially transitioned around sixth grade, he’s going into eighth grade on the book. And the school administration was probably not so wonderful to him and accepting about that, because I know that’s an experience that’s happened in rural schools —
GiannaMarie 1:05:17
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:05:17
— especially in the Midwest and the South. And so he tells Ana, that his family moved to California because his great aunt Rebecca died and left the house to them in Berkeley. But I think it was also a choice from his parents’ perspective that they want a more progressive location for him to grow up in and a school that’s going to support him.
GiannaMarie 1:05:37
Awww.
Andrew Sass 1:05:37
And if I ever get to write a book from Hayden’s perspective, I would talk about hormone blockers, which is something that he’d be going on. And kind of his story would probably more align with… trying to be stealth and his new school, but then realizing that that sort of alienates him from the queer community, because no one knows he’s queer and how that works. Because I think that’s a really real issue for a lot of kids who transition young and how much they want to be out and how much they want to reveal to other people and make themselves vulnerable, and how much they want to just live their lives, too, so. I don’t know if I ever finished answering the first question. Sorry!
GiannaMarie 1:06:18
We — we got into a lot of that when we spoke to Lisa Bunker —
Andrew Sass 1:06:24
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 1:06:24
— who is actually — that’s how we first found out about This is Our Rainbow, because we spoke to Lisa Bunker and we were like, um, you’re amazing! And we read Zenobia July —
Andrew Sass 1:06:33
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:06:33
— which is about a trans girl who’s stealth and very anxious about it. Just started at a new school, just got in with like, a progressive queer part of her family. Like it’s — it — yeah, it was. It’s — Zenobia July is very good, we definitely recommend it.
Andrew Sass 1:06:55
And that’s why I’m always going to advocate for like, we can’t just have that one non-binary book, or that one coming out story with a gay guy or something, because I feel like all of our experiences are different. And that also doesn’t really account for intersectionality with race and minority religious experience, and being queer and disability and queerness. So I’m kind of one of those people who was like, it’s great that we have a non binary middle grade story now, but like this is a — one experience, this is Ana’s personal experience with being non-binary. I think if you ask 10 non binary people about their experiences coming out that you get 10 different answers.
GiannaMarie 1:07:33
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:07:34
Me — even my story is very different than Ana’s, obviously. And I think my experiences with the sport of figure skating and coming out within it have been different than Ana’s too, just by virtue of me being an adult. [laughing] I’m not trying to go to Nationals in the ladies or the men’s division. I am literally just doing synchro, where you can be co-ed and no one really cares if you wear pants or a skirt in synchro. So. I just… all of our experiences are very different. And I would love to see more books that explore different angles of it.
GiannaMarie 1:08:08
I actually — you keep saying non-binary, I kept getting like, agender vibes from Ana.
Andrew Sass 1:08:13
I heard that on the original one.
GiannaMarie 1:08:15
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:08:15
And you know, I hadn’t thought that far because I was so committed to this whole, “Ana doesn’t have things figured out” that clearly the author didn’t either, cuz I really didn’t go there. I just — for me, I saw non-binary as like an umbrella term to other identities —
Ron 1:08:28
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Sass 1:08:28
— like genderfluid and agender, and I’m not sure if that’s the right way to look at it or if that was just how I looked at it when I was framing the book. But I really wanted to leave it open ended so that maybe in the future if I do get to write another story even from Hayden’s perspective with Ana still in the book, that I can kind of explore that a little bit more.
GiannaMarie 1:08:47
I love that you wrote such a self-contained book, but also you’re like, but I love them? Someone let me keep writing?
Andrew Sass 1:08:55
Yeah. [laugh]
GiannaMarie 1:08:56
Like, I love that energy.
Ron 1:08:58
Also! If you wrote a hidden book where Hayden gets to start playing hockey, there’s your next ice skating book.
Andrew Sass 1:09:04
Right?!
GiannaMarie 1:09:04
Yes, yes! [all laughing] It’s right there! I didn’t see it.
Andrew Sass 1:09:12
Yeah.
Ron 1:09:12
Get that — [inaudible] fun launch party.
GiannaMarie 1:09:14
You can Zoom us to your party.
Andrew Sass 1:09:17
Yes, you’re both invited. [laugh] Yeah, I definitely envisioned like maybe Hayden moves up to like level two. I didn’t want to specifically take terms from the — the actual governing organization but you — at least Ron knows what I’m talking about what like the levels, as opposed to like basic one and two.
Ron 1:09:33
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:09:33
And I was like, I imagine that Hayden would probably have Alex as his teacher for the next one. And I’m not actually sure if he’s that into hockey or if he’s just, you know, from the Midwest and feels like hockey is a guy’s thing to do, because he’s also into cosplay too —
Ron 1:09:49
Mm.
Andrew Sass 1:09:49
— you know, which is not not really a gendered thing, but I feel like if you look up cosplay costumes online, you see like more female presenting people who might even be cosplaying guy characters — than you would see cisgender men, so it would be fun to explore that with him because I feel like a lot of what he does publicly is to try hard to be like, “I’m a boy!” But then he’s like, super into cosplay! Well, at least privately in his room with his family. And so in his costumes for him and stuff, so.
Ron 1:10:01
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:10:20
I have questions about this, because I — well, first of all, like, I definitely see what you’re saying. There’s a lot of like overlap in fandom between, like, there’s a lot of overlap between fandom and neurodiversity. And I think that it’s a lot of like, AFAB people expressing neurodiversity in “acceptable ways.” “acceptable ways?” Um, what are Hayden’s plans for this cosplay? Does he have a convention to go to? Like, is it for Halloween? Like I need to know all of the information.
Andrew Sass 1:10:55
[whispered] Oh my gosh.
GiannaMarie 1:10:55
I love it so much, also, like, are you a cosplayer? Like, why is this in the book? I — because no one — no one ever respectfully, and lovingly talks about cosplay unless they are a cosplayer. So I just — I just have so many questions. I miss conventions, I wanna talk about — [laughing]
Andrew Sass 1:11:14
I am like — yeah. [laugh] I am not a cosplayer. I’m kind of a failed one. At one point I dated someone who was, I think wanting to be a cosplayer. And they got me into Kingdom Hearts. I’d literally never played the video games. Like I’m super old school. The last console I owned on my own was like a Sega Genesis. And I still think that’s like, the peak of gaming. [laugh] So and — that Kingdom Hearts obviously what — is not compatible with Nintendo Entertainment System or Atari or anything like that —
GiannaMarie 1:11:44
Obviously, obviously. I have no idea what we’re talking about. [all laugh]
Andrew Sass 1:11:51
I think I’m slightly older than at least GiannaMarie. Like literally, we had an Atari growing up, and we would bring it with us on road trips, and all the little cartridges in a big shoe box. So yeah, that probably dates me a little bit. But so —
GiannaMarie 1:12:06
I was born in — we were both born in 1998. But I’m — I’m the naive one.
Andrew Sass 1:12:11
Yeah I’m substantially older than both of you. [laugh] just a little bit like by like a decade and a half or so. [all laugh]
GiannaMarie 1:12:20
But you’re so youthful and with it with the kids!
Andrew Sass 1:12:23
Well, gee thanks. [all laugh] Except for my search — my search terms like, and what like, a modern kid would —
GiannaMarie 1:12:29
Oh my god!
Andrew Sass 1:12:30
I was crying when —
GiannaMarie 1:12:31
Yeah! [peals of laughter throughout]
Andrew Sass 1:12:31
— you guys mentioned that that on — they’re like, laughter, cuz I was like, wow, yeah. You called me on that. And I even went to grad school. So I knew better. I know what a Boolean search is. [all laugh] But clearly Ana did not.
GiannaMarie 1:12:43
I mean, the book is so realistic, except for the fact that she never looks anything up. That’s like the one thing that I was like to she, like, she has to have a phone. Like she has the whole internet in her pocket!
Andrew Sass 1:12:57
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:12:58
Like, do something! [both laughing]
Andrew Sass 1:13:01
That has gotta be a facet of my own childhood. So I guess there are parts of those but the like, are shades of me, because like, it wouldn’t have occurred to me because I literally — when I was Ana’s age, I don’t even think my dad had one of those old walkie talkie cell phones. It was just like way too old. I would have been like, I think 12 in ’96 or something. [laugh] So it’s — it’s been a while. And it might have just been like a narrative device too, because like — it — would the book even exist? [laugh] Like, if Ana had googled it in chapter one, and been like, oh, okay, well, this is simple. Don’t want that choreographer then, thanks, Mom! [all laugh] I don’t — I mean, there’s always going to be something I think in a book where you’re like, side-eyeing it. And that was my thing, apparently. Lesson learned for next time. [laugh]
Ron 1:13:47
I mean, I definitely don’t think it was like, wildly unrealistic, because I think different people’s brains work in different way.
Andrew Sass 1:13:55
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:13:57
There’s definitely people who’ll be like, I’m too afraid to ask Google.
Ron 1:14:02
Yeah. And — I’m just literally in the throes of a librarianship degree. [laughing] And I’m just like, come to me.
Andrew Sass 1:14:11
Like, really Ana?
Ron 1:14:13
I’ll help you with your search terms. [all laughing]
Andrew Sass 1:14:16
Yeah. But. Well, like getting —
Ron 1:14:22
But also like, when I was Ana’s age, I — but it was also like, a different time. And I lived in the middle of nowhere — like, other kids my age, when I was Ana’s age probably would have googled, but I still lived in a house without internet, so.
Andrew Sass 1:14:35
Yeah, and I feel like she — she’s focused on skating, but maybe like she’s not as tapped in — like if it were Tamar questioning, that — that wouldn’t be a book because she would have looked it up immediately and figured it out and told everyone, and maybe tweeted about it. [all laughing] But I think Ana’s just — , that’s just not Ana. But —
GiannaMarie 1:14:54
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:14:55
And it wasn’t me either. I mean…yeah. I don’t think I would have done that as a kid. I mean, that goes back to the fact that like, when I was looking, I was seeing only those types of narratives I didn’t relate to. So I was like, well, this isn’t me, then, I guess, so this must not apply to me.
Ron 1:15:10
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:15:11
So, I don’t know, maybe that might have been something that…I’m not going to try to be like, maybe I could edit the book! Because it’s like too late, now. I think someone said, too, like, when do you know when you’re done with a book? It’s like, when it gets published, because you can’t edit it anymore. So that’s one thing I have to make peace with. [laugh]
Ron 1:15:20
[laughing] Do you — did you ever go back and read your book after it was printed? Or are you just like, Nope, put it on the shelf.
Andrew Sass 1:15:39
I’ve read snippets of it, I don’t think I’ve read the whole thing since then. But that’s because I read it like 150 times since before that, including —
Ron 1:15:47
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:15:47
— like, out loud a couple times. And I still am angry that I missed a typo that my audiobook narrator DM’d me on Twitter about, and I was like, dang it. It’s too late!
GiannaMarie 1:15:55
Oh, no!
Andrew Sass 1:15:56
It’s something super minor no one but I would care about, but yeah, at some point, I’ll go back and read it again. But I’m also kind of afraid that I feel like every new story that I write, I kind of level up as a writer. And I’m afraid that if I go back and look at that, I’ll be like, Oh…oh dear, like — and want to be like, very editorial about it.
GiannaMarie 1:16:14
People have to grow!
Andrew Sass 1:16:15
And I can’t change anything at this point. So I don’t know.
Ron 1:16:20
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:16:20
I will love it forever. But it was definitely my first middle grade. So. Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:16:27
It’s a very solid book.
Andrew Sass 1:16:29
Thank you.
GiannaMarie 1:16:30
Like, not only do we love it, but also like, it’s built very well? Like, the — the objective parts are good. Aside from the fact that we love it.
Andrew Sass 1:16:47
Well, thank you. I appreciate that, yeah. That’s definitely something that my editor helped me with. I had a much shorter book when she bought it. And then it got — it kind of flourished under her guidance and became the nearly 400 page book that it is today because of her.
GiannaMarie 1:17:07
I did not know it was 400 pages, I read it on a library app.
Andrew Sass 1:17:11
Yeah, it’s like 384. But it’s also a middle grade pages. So they’ve got wide margins, and probably like 14 point font. So it’s — it’s not actually a 400 page book, but it looks like one in the hardcover, yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:17:23
Yeah, that’s not that chunky. But speaking of middle grade pages, I just — I’m so angry that adult books are not printed in 14 point font.
Andrew Sass 1:17:36
Right?!
GiannaMarie 1:17:37
I — I just…that woke an anger in me. [laughing]
Ron 1:17:44
But yeah, it was the first book I’ve stayed up into the night, unable to put down, in a very long time.
Andrew Sass 1:17:51
Oh my goodness.
GiannaMarie 1:17:52
Ron like, seriously related to this on another level.
Ron 1:17:57
It was also kind of terrible, because the night that I stayed up and couldn’t put it down, I had a consult for my wisdom teeth —
Andrew Sass 1:18:04
Aw, no! [laughing]
Ron 1:18:04
Like, first thing in the morning, the next morning, so I think I got like three hours of sleep. [laugh]
Andrew Sass 1:18:13
Like, I mean, that’s the highest compliment you can give an author honestly, is to either say, your book made me cry. And I’m like, well, thank you! Or like, I — I lost sleep over this. So that means a lot, and I made a good choice with your wisdom teeth consult.
GiannaMarie 1:18:29
Ron is wisdom teeth free now.
Ron 1:18:30
I think that was the one where they were like checking up after it was done.
Andrew Sass 1:18:33
Okay, so that’s better than…some alternatives. [laugh]
Ron 1:18:37
This is like, completely unrelated. And I don’t need to mention it, but I will anyway, I got my wisdom teeth out was part of a study. So I basically paid nothing. And it was awesome. Because I’ve needed them out for a very long time. Since I was like, I think 17, they were like, yeah, you need those out. And I was like, haha, where am I getting the money? Um.
Andrew Sass 1:18:59
Relatable. [all laugh]
GiannaMarie 1:19:02
So what I’ve been hearing when you’ve been talking about growing up in like, the 90s, is that, like, a lot of not understanding and not having the words for your queerness is very similar and tied into not understanding not having the words for being autistic. Correct?
Andrew Sass 1:19:21
Yeah, yeah exactly.
GiannaMarie 1:19:22
Because — that was also the same for me. You know, I had all of the internet I did not know that I was autistic or that I was asexual until I was like 18 or 19. And it just like put me into complete like, blue screen of death mode. Um, like, we’ve spoken about this on the podcast before, I literally dropped out of school and disappeared. [laugh] Ron was like, did she get…institutionalized or something? Like, can someone just tell me she’s okay?
Ron 1:19:54
Basically, our friendship origin story. We met at the same college, but then GiannaMarie dropped out of the car. With no indication that that was going to happen, and no communication afterward, and I was like —
Andrew Sass 1:20:07
I mean, like, that’s a big thing to be grappling with. And also like turning in homework assignments on time, so. I get that. I mean, I was mostly —
Ron 1:20:16
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:20:16
— dealing with like, depression and stuff in high school.
GiannaMarie 1:20:19
Oh yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:20:19
And luckily, I was taking college classes, so I could kind of work around it because some of them were like, one night a week or on a Saturday morning. So I could, you know, be depressed for like, three days in a row and still kind of survive college. But not all college classes are like that.
GiannaMarie 1:20:37
Yeah. I was definitely not adequately medicated at the time. [laugh] I was — I was actually — I was — the psych- the psychiatrist that went and visited like, once a month at the school that Ron and I met at, like, really did me dirty, but, um, this was tying into the fact that you and I are both autistic, Ron has ADHD that’s not diagnosed, because that’s expensive.
Andrew Sass 1:21:07
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:21:08
Um, so…Ana is not like, necessarily autistic. So as — as an autistic creator, what is it like writing an aut-, an ostensibly allistic character?
Andrew Sass 1:21:22
I love that you use that word, because I’ve had people ask me flat out like, is Ana autistic? Because that’s how I read her! And I was like, I was not going for that. But now that I think about it, I could see where you’re picking up on that from some of the ways that she reacts to questions, I know like, specifically, like, she takes a question Tamar asks her, like in her Tamar and Ana coming out scene at the end of the book very literally, and Tamar is like, that’s not even what I’m talking about. And I think the way that she describes the ice, like, the sensation of being on ice and stuff can be read from an autistic lens. I think this book probably would have been like 700 pages long if I’d also throw it in that Ana was autistic. And I think — it’s a realistic thing, obviously, I am queer and autistic and a figure skater myself. But I think for the purposes of a middle grade, that would have been a lot of things to juggle all at once. And so I guess, like, I feel like every single piece of media that I’ve looked at, especially as a child and mostly throughout adulthood, has been of non-autistic experience. So I naturally gravitated to write in an allistic character, because that’s all I felt I knew. It’s sort of like masking and writing almost.
GiannaMarie 1:22:39
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:22:39
But then when people pointed out that, like, they saw autistic traits in Ana, I was like, Well, I guess I’m not doing as good of a job masking as I thought! Because I mean, this is my, like, the descriptions. And I think this would probably come through even more in a YA or adult book where I got the opportunity to write more descriptions, because middle grade, kind of — you got to do — like in and out, like one sentence of a description, and then move on so that people don’t lose interest. But it’s been interesting because I haven’t specifically tried to mask anything in terms of like, how I’m writing Ana as a character. And I don’t think my editor brought up anything like that either. So I’m like, very happy if people want to read Ana as autistic, like, they are more than welcome to do so, I know that there’s a big issue in terms of queer representation where authors have not, like, canonically made a character queer, but then said, yeah, if you want to read them that way, that’s fine. And I know there’s like a problematic aspect to that. Because like, we want to see them say that they’re queer and be clear if they are queer. So I kind of see it from both sides with the Ana thing, but also in my second book, I do have like a canonically autistic and queer main character, and that was what I was going for with that one, so. So I’m —
GiannaMarie 1:23:59
I definitely didn’t mean to pressure you in any way —
Andrew Sass 1:24:01
No, no — I have lots of thoughts about this
GiannaMarie 1:24:04
Anyway, I just — I — I did not read Ana as autistic. I was just thinking, like, it’s so difficult to like, peel away, and like, figure out like, how are — how are the normal people doing this? [all laugh] Like, like, what are the neurotypicals doing? How do they work? Like, how do you — when you are not a neurotypical person yourself, but you’re writing about neurotypical people. Like, I don’t like, I don’t know, I just kind of wanted to like flip the script of like, you know, an abled author is like, writing a disabled character. And you’re like, [deeper voice] “how do you put yourself in the shoes of someone who’s so different?” And it’s like, maybe, maybe you just shouldn’t — get — get out of here. So I’m like, literally, though, like, how do you write about neurotypical people? They’re wild! Like. [all laugh] That was more of my question.
Andrew Sass 1:24:58
Yeah. And honestly the answer’s I don’t know. Because like, I just wrote her from kind of my experience, at least in terms of like the coming out aspect, the mental component and then the skating, too. So maybe that’s why some people did read her as autistic, but like, it also wasn’t the intention. But like I said, if they want to see it that way, I’m very happy about that. And I also am writing autistic characters and future books, too. So, yeah, I don’t know. I mean, to the readers who read Ana as autistic, I think my answer is, I kind of failed at writing an allistic character for them. But I don’t know. I mean, I feel like I’m around neurotypical people all day and all — all the time, like pre-pandemic anyway, right now. I’m around my cats. And that’s about it. So I think I pick up on things that way. I mean, I don’t think anyone read like Tamar or Hayden as autistic, so I must have done an okay job, making them seem allistic. But yeah, I spent a lot of my time observing, oh, and especially when I was a kid, because I wanted to be normal, like, quote, unquote, normal as a kid. And I always felt very ostracized from, like, groups of friends and stuff, because I just never could quite figure out the nuance and the conversation flow and stuff like that. So I would spend a lot of time observing them. And I think that lends itself to writing really well, too, because then I have something to pull from. So maybe that — that’s more of an answer to your question, then where I went off before, too? Possibly?
GiannaMarie 1:26:32
No, definitely. I liked hearing about both of those answers.
Andrew Sass 1:26:37
I have lots of thoughts.
GiannaMarie 1:26:38
Yeah. There’s definitely value for that. I’m — although I am glad that there is a clearly defined set of labels for Ellen.
Andrew Sass 1:26:49
Yeah. Sorta. Yeah. Yes. I — I was like, that has to be — that has to be the right name. If it’s in the title, it has to be the name. Yes. That is the correct name.
Ron 1:27:01
Um, so —
GiannaMarie 1:27:02
We have a bunch of ice skating questions. And then like one more writing question, I think.
Andrew Sass 1:27:06
Yeah, go for it.
Ron 1:27:07
Well, I was going to ask our other writing question about Ana on the Edge, which is not related, really, to most of the things we’ve already talked about with Ana on the Edge. But basically, something that we thought was well done in the novel is the conflict between Ana and Tamar is like a very realistic type of friend conflict, that can be resolved with clear communication.
Andrew Sass 1:27:35
Yep.
Ron 1:27:37
And it really builds up over time. So we were curious about the writing process of writing an argument like that, and having to scatter in like, little seeds of the build up throughout your story, and how you went about that.
Andrew Sass 1:27:53
So this is entirely credit to my editor, Lisa Yoskowitz at Little Brown, because, as I think I mentioned a little bit earlier, this book, when it sold — and writers talk in instead of page count, we talk in terms of word count, I don’t know if they mean anything to anyone else. But this — so sorry, if they’re a little confusing, but those books sold at 54,000 words. And one of the things that Lisa specifically said that was in her editorial vision was to kind of add connective tissue to the conflict between Ana and Tamar, and also the friendship between Ana and her new training mate Faith. Because in a 54,000 word book, they were just kind of lightly touched on. And she’s like, I’d like to see more scenes with them together. So that, like, when they’re apart, that hits a little bit harder. So I actually ended up going from 54,000 words, before the revision, to 72,000 afterwards, which is…quite long for middle grade contemporary, I think after we line edited it, it ended up down at 65,000. But that gave me the space — she basically said, you know, the book is as long as it needs to be to tell the story. And there’s still more story to tell here between Ana and Tamar. So…and it was interesting, too, because I actually ended up adding too many new scenes in, and then suddenly did the original conflict, which was Tamar saying, “you never talk to me,” like didn’t ring true anymore, because Ana was talking to her a lot more. So I had to really flesh that out and — and kind of see the arc through during the revision process. And it was very tricky. Because I didn’t wanna… I mean, you said too, proper communication would have fixed a lot of the stuff, but I mean, how many kids at age 12 are willing to like, hash it out in person, so. So there was —
GiannaMarie 1:29:41
I don’t try a lot of them have the right tools.
Andrew Sass 1:29:43
Yes. It’s just —
GiannaMarie 1:29:45
They just don’t have the life experience and that can’t be held against them. They learned so much in this book, I’m so proud of them!
Andrew Sass 1:29:51
Yeah. Well, and too, I think Tamar was a little thrown by the fact that she knew Ana was moving to a different rink to train. But suddenly Ana has this new training mate she talks about, Faith. And Ana is a little bit oblivious about it, she’s mostly bringing up Faith to talk about how much more comfortable Faith is with the choreography, and how more easily she — she picks up on choreography and portraying a feminine character than Ana does. But Tamar is reading it as, “you have a new friend and you’ve replaced me” and then suddenly, like Hayden ends up in there too.
GiannaMarie 1:30:21
Aww.
Andrew Sass 1:30:21
So. So I think that kind of rings true to real life, too, where even if you don’t feel like you’re replacing someone, your friend might feel that way, because something has changed in your life. So it’s, yeah, I don’t really miss those times in my life, where we didn’t communicate properly and just felt hurt all the time.
Ron 1:30:42
Mm.
Andrew Sass 1:30:42
But I feel like they do bring true to real life and what I experienced as a kid as well.
Ron 1:30:47
Yeah. And I also like, I just know that, um, not just on the podcast, but in life GiannaMarie and I read a lot of the same books, and will occasionally be like, you know, this conflict between friends is not the type of thing I would ever give — forgive someone for! [laugh] Whereas this one, I’m like, yeah, this seems like real friends that like should work out their stuff and get along. Whereas like, I don’t know, just some other things are sometimes like, Oh, my gosh, that person should never be forgiven. [laugh]
Andrew Sass 1:31:18
Right. I think Ana too was very fearful, given some of the things that Tamara had just unknowingly said that —
GiannaMarie 1:31:26
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:31:27
Ana had read as like, being transphobic, even if she wasn’t intentionally doing it. And she was afraid that —
Ron 1:31:32
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:31:32
— if I’m actually talking to her, and being frank with her about some of this stuff, I might lose a friend, as opposed to having a friend who I don’t see as much as I’d like to.
Ron 1:31:41
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Sass 1:31:41
So I think that’s like a very complicated choreography in itself, for kids who are trying to come out or like, feel — like, dip your toes in a little bit to coming out to one person at a time, which is what happens in the book, Ana comes out.
Ron 1:31:55
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:31:55
I think there’s three or four coming out scenes in this book, which feels exhausting mentally, but a lot of queer people have to come out several-several times. So it is what it is, I suppose.
Ron 1:32:08
Yeah. And I also think it’s a good, like, point of kind of representation of experience that like, a lot of queer people do have to find ways to make people who are not queer, or at least who don’t share their queer identity…understand what they’re thinking about and what they’re going through. Because like, obviously, it wasn’t even on Tamar’s radar.
Andrew Sass 1:32:34
Yeah, exactly.
Ron 1:32:35
To think like, Oh, these things I’m saying could like hurt someone. Whereas if, like, from Ana’s perspective, it’s like, these things are like, really blatantly things that signal that Tamar might hurt me.
Andrew Sass 1:32:49
Yeah. These poor beans, these poor kids.
GiannaMarie 1:32:54
I knowww.
Andrew Sass 1:32:54
I mean, they obviously got around to, like understanding each other by the end, but —
Ron 1:32:59
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:32:59
I think that’s — that’s what communication is all for, so.
Ron 1:33:04
Um, on a lighter note, but related to Tamar. Tamar does ice cartwheels. Um, and you mentioned that you do ice cartwheels, and this just — I needed to mention it, because it just brought back like, a memory from the past that was completely like, locked away up until I read this book, of my synchro coach when I was a kid, doing ice cartwheels.
Andrew Sass 1:33:31
See, I’m not alone!
Ron 1:33:34
[laughing]
GiannaMarie 1:33:34
Those seem so terrifying.
Ron 1:33:36
[laughing]
Andrew Sass 1:33:36
Yeah. [all laughing] To me now, too. My synchro coach, actually literally this last Saturday was like, we need a really cool way to end this program — Andrew, you can do cartwheels, right? And I was like, I used…to be able to do cartwheels. And like, also, like, not in front of like, judges and an audience. I would do them on 6am sessions when I was alone. [laugh]
Ron 1:34:00
So, that’s something I never tried, because I was like, that just doesn’t seem…like it would end well. Because — with me, I used to do gymnastics before I did skating too, and like, the biggest thing that held me back, especially from gymnastics, was like, a fear of falling. Because especially in gymnastics, like, many times you are elevated, even beyond being elevated on skates —
Andrew Sass 1:34:26
Yup.
Ron 1:34:26
— you’re like, on a balance beam or uneven bars or something, and I’d just be like, nope, this doesn’t seem smart. [laugh] But one thing I would do, is I would do the — when the we were at the rink, and like, the “Cotton-Eyed Joe,” or like the “YMCA” or something would come on, I knew how to do all those dances on figure skates. [laugh] And my friends who like would just go around to skate in circles while I wanted the skate, would just be like, Wow, that’s amazing, how do you do that?? Um, but anyway — [laughing]
GiannaMarie 1:35:02
I’m the circle type.
Ron 1:35:04
More of relatedly um, or like an actual question, I mean. Do you have like, a favorite move to do on ice? Like, not necessarily something that’s complicated or, like, impressive, just something that’s fun to do?
Andrew Sass 1:35:15
For me, that — I mean, and I think some people think this is impressive, but I really like hydroblades. And I have no idea how to describe this to a non skater. Ron, do you know what a hydroblade is?
Ron 1:35:27
…Maybe?
Andrew Sass 1:35:27
It’s — I think I shared a video of one within the last couple of weeks. It’s basically you know what a shoot the duck is right?
Ron 1:35:35
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:35:35
So it’s a shoot the duck picks up, which is like a — for the non skaters, is a sit-spin position. So you’re basically bent on one knee with the other leg, the free leg, out in front of you. With a hydroblade, the free leg goes behind the bent knee that’s on the ice, and you lean forward so you’re — you’re balancing on one — one blade, and also your hands as you’re going around in an outside circle. And — you know —
Ron 1:36:00
Oh, yeah, like — the one — Yeah, yeah, Yeah! When I was a kid, there was a guy who, at all of our like, like, club skate shows, he would perform and he did a program that had that in it —
Andrew Sass 1:36:15
Yeah!
Ron 1:36:15
And I was always like, Oh, my God, that’s the coolest thing I’ve ever seen!
Andrew Sass 1:36:18
Yeah, I like it, and I like to joke I like it because it’s like, close to the ice. So if I like, lose my balance, I’m literally two inches off the ice, so I’m not gonna fall very far.
Ron 1:36:28
[laughing]
GiannaMarie 1:36:29
I just looked this up. And my astonished face was just looking at pictures of people doing this.
Andrew Sass 1:36:35
Yeah. It’s cool.
GiannaMarie 1:36:37
You all are so cool!
Andrew Sass 1:36:38
It’s — it’s fun. And it’s best done on a session that’s not very busy, because you can’t see anything behind you. So you’ll just take out everyone in your path. [all laugh] I really love it. I actually learned it for synchro. I was — as a teenager, I was trying out for this really good junior level team that, like way after my time, won nationals a couple times and placed at like, whatever the junior version of worlds is. And they said, you have to know how to do a hydroblade for this team. So I fell on my butt for like three hours straight trying to learn this move. Went to tryouts, and they didn’t even ask to see it. But I’ve been able to do it since age 16. Because of this — this tryout that didn’t even —
GiannaMarie 1:37:18
How dare.
Andrew Sass 1:37:20
But yeah, I love it still. I mean, it’s a fun move. And as I get creakier in my old age, it’s still manageable to do and it just — it’s a great feeling to just like fly across the ice and like, also be kind of feeling like you’re hugging in the ice at the same time. [laugh]
GiannaMarie 1:37:38
I have to look up videos of this.
Andrew Sass 1:37:41
Yeah. Yeah. I think that it’s really cool. I mean, I don’t think it’s worth anything, and I — I’m not, um. But I think they’re banned from ice dance, because technically, you’re putting your hand on the ice, which is not allowed, so. They’re mostly a show skater thing. But they’re fun. And less chance of like slamming your head into the ice like a cartwheel.
GiannaMarie 1:38:05
[very quietly] there are so many rules. [regular voice] The cartwheel is a terrifying prospect. [laugh]
Ron 1:38:16
I guess this also kind of flows fairly neatly into — you mentioned a couple skaters when you were talking about that, but — who are some of your favorite skaters or teams if there’s any synchro teams, that you really enjoy watching? To watch.
Andrew Sass 1:38:30
Yeah. I love watching Jason Brown skate. I don’t know if either of you are familiar with him. But he’s just — he’s one of those skaters that has like, beautiful edges. It literally — it’s like, if you’re familiar with Patrick Chan’s edge quality from like, 10 years ago, Jason Brown has that same. It looks like a knife that’s cutting through warm butter. It’s just like, so soft — his edge quality is just beautiful. And his jumps are gorgeous. And he’s someone who actually feels the music. And I feel like you can learn a lot of that. But that showmanship quality that he has is something that I think is also very innate to a specific person. And he just — he’s so talented. So I — I love watching him. In person and on television. And I’ve met him a couple times, I was at a an adult skating camp once when they still had things like that. And that was up at 7K at Monument, Colorado when he was still training there. And he’s just genuinely a nice person. Like he actually — I felt taken aback because I was just walking back from the bathroom or something to get back to the rink and he was warming up on the benches. And he was like, Hey, how’s it going? Like we actually knew each other, and we’d literally never met before. So I was like, super awkward-sauce, because I was like — I like, froze up —
Ron 1:39:45
[laughing]
Andrew Sass 1:39:45
— and I was like, Oh my gosh, he’s talking to me, and I really want a picture but I’m not going to ask him that because that’s super rude, he’s stretching!
GiannaMarie 1:39:50
[laughing]
Andrew Sass 1:39:51
But yeah, I just I’m a big fan of his because he’s so friendly. And he’s a beautiful skater. And I really like on the ladies division Alysa Liu, who won nationals two years in a row. So I think she beat Tara Lipinski’s record for youngest skater, and I have kind of a local connection with her because she trains out of Oakland. So it’s been fun to watch her go from intermediate level champion to senior level national champion over the years and just see how she’s flourishing as a skater. And pairs wise, I really like Timothy LeDuc, and his partner Ashley Cain-Gribble, who are at the senior level right now. Timothy’s a really fabulous LGBTQ advocate within the sport. And is actively trying to work to make sure that the gender identity language in the bylaws of the sport accurately reflect, you know, people’s gender identities in a very authentic and sincere to them — and just inoffensive. And gosh, it’s — ice dance. I have too many ice dance teams. I like — there was a team Joe Johnson and Karina Manta, who did a eurhythmics song as their final ice dance national long program together, a free dance program together. And they were the first team of two queer ice dancers doing that, they’d both come out, Karina as bi, and Joe is gay. So just getting to see them be themselves on the ice and not really play into the expectations of gender roles that you usually see an ice dance was a really cool experience. So. I could talk about skating forever. So I will be quiet now. Yeah. [laugh]
Ron 1:40:54
[chuckle]
GiannaMarie 1:41:20
That actually ties very neatly into a question that I had. So we were reading your FAQs on your website.
Andrew Sass 1:41:34
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 1:41:34
Which were very helpful. And you were talking about how binary trans people it’s — it’s not as difficult for them as it is to — it’s not as difficult for them to find a place in the various many ice skating related sports.
Andrew Sass 1:41:49
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:41:50
As it is for GNC, non-binary, and agender skaters. So if you could like, change all the rules and enforce them, and people like, had to play by your new rules. What would you do to change skating to make room for them and make it like, welcoming and safe and good? I don’t know. That’s a big question.
Andrew Sass 1:42:10
Yeah, I had this question asked to me on a different interview. And I’m still sort of grappling nicely answer it. Yeah. Because I struggled then. And you guys gave me a heads up on the question. So I feel like I should have constructed a better answer now that I knew it was coming again? Because I didn’t know during that interview. But I’m still kind of struggling with it. Because I feel like in a perfect world, it would be nice for people to just enter the discipline that they felt most comfortable with. But then we’re still stuck in this binary, men’s and — or men’s and ladies’ disciplines. And that might not be comfortable for some non-binary people. So I was like, maybe a discipline just for non-binary people. But…I — I don’t know how that would work. I think — and I think too, because I know so much about the sport and the rules behind it, that’s where I start getting stuck. Because I feel like if I were coming at this from an angle where I knew nothing about the sport, maybe I’d be more creative about how we could fix it. But I do know, like, I have a friend who is an ice dance instructor who talked to me years ago, which is kind of the seed for Ana on the Edge, and saying that — and she’s queer herself — and one of her students came out as agender but wanted to be an ice dancer. And ice dance is even more rigidly gendered than singles skating. I mean, you literally have to choose a men’s or women’s position —
GiannaMarie 1:42:16
Oh seriously? Mm.
Andrew Sass 1:43:31
— if you’re doing partnered ice dance, and how she was navigating that with this kid, and their supportive parents. And I just — I would really like to see kids compete in the costumes that are most comfortable with to music that they’re comfortable with, without having to worry about, you know, wearing makeup if they don’t want to, or, you know, like, if they’re a guy, I think they should be allowed to wear as fabulous of makeup as they want. I don’t know if there’s actually a rule against guys wearing, like, glitter on the ice or anything. But I would just — I would love to see anyone who joins a sport feel comfortable in it in the way that I felt comfortable with it, because I transitioned a little bit later, and I didn’t necessarily have to worry as much about the binary aspects of the sport. But I don’t know what that looks like specifically. So I feel like I’m giving you a non-answer. I don’t know if Ron has thought about this at all? It’s something that I think about a lot and I just haven’t come to a conclusion yet about how it would work. But I want it to. [laugh]
Ron 1:44:30
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:44:31
I feel like —
Ron 1:44:31
My like, initial thought was like what if everything was one category? But then like, that kind of makes things too, like? Pooled? Because like, the reason, partially, for different, like, rules like, especially when it comes to like, rotations and jumps and stuff like that —
Andrew Sass 1:44:48
Yeah.
Ron 1:44:48
— is because like, if there’s an athlete who is like, heavy on testosterone, versus an athlete who is not, there’s a lot more height they can do and stuff like that. So like, you do kind of need those divisions to be fair.
Andrew Sass 1:45:04
Yeah —
Ron 1:45:04
Because like —
GiannaMarie 1:45:05
Would these be different than the — there’s like a school of thought that’s kind of like, like, say we were talking about, like, running or something, like, instead of hav- like, a men’s marathon winner and a women’s marathon winner, just have like, different divisions, and like, abolish the gender binary, but — of that entirely and have it be categories of ability instead — Yeah. Kind of like — — which actually includes a lot of disabled people in ways that have not been allowed before. Like —
Ron 1:45:33
Yeah —
GiannaMarie 1:45:33
without [inaudible]?
Ron 1:45:34
You could potentially maybe do it kind of like how wrestling is, where you’re like, put in a class based on, like, your ability and like, what you can do, and like your size — and stuff? I don’t know if size would be really as relevant. But like, that’s how wrestling is split up.
Andrew Sass 1:45:45
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:45:50
Yeah.
Ron 1:45:50
And um, I mean, wrestling is also still gendered —
Andrew Sass 1:45:53
Yup.
Ron 1:45:53
— but like, there’s really not a reason for wrestling to have to be gendered when you’re doing it that way, if you seperate people —
GiannaMarie 1:45:58
Yeah, exactly.
Ron 1:45:58
— by weight class and stuff. So. yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:46:01
One thought would be, you know, that they could — and I feel like I’ve heard this thrown out there not in the context of queer athletes, but just in general, because we’ve been seeing so many skaters on the men’s and ladies started doing quads, and just like, not having much artistic merit, cuz all they’re doing is focusing on these rotational jumps. To get the points —
Ron 1:46:21
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Sass 1:46:21
— and then they’re like winning by 50 points, because they did all quads, and everyone else did triples —
Ron 1:46:25
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:46:25
— would be split it up into a technical discipline, where you can win based on technical merit, and artistic, where the judging is focused more on the edge quality, the interpretation of the music…you still have to do jumps, but they aren’t weighted as heavily.
Ron 1:46:39
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Sass 1:46:40
And that might open the door for more people to kind of express themselves in a way they’re most comfortable with, whether that’s, you know, like, throwing quad lutzes left and right places [laugh], or you know, a cisgender guy wearing a dress and like, interpreting music that feels good to them or something.
Ron 1:46:56
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Sass 1:46:57
So that’s also possible. I just…professional sports are so tricky, because there’s so many moving parts involved —
Ron 1:47:03
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:47:03
— to get things to change within the sport. So. Hopefully one day, something — someone will come up with kind of a compromise so that every everyone feels comfortable within the sports.
Ron 1:47:16
Mm-hmm. Just like, a side note, is one of my favorite skaters is Johnny Weir.
Andrew Sass 1:47:20
Oh, yeah. He’s fun.
Ron 1:47:21
Who I know has — yeah. Like, I remember when I was a kid, and I like, first saw him on TV. My parents were like, Oh my God, like, because he would dress so differently than all the other skaters. And I was like — I remember like, one of my parents was like, Oh, my God, he’s like, Johnny Weir, but they might as well call him Johnny Weird. [laughing] I was just like, okay. But like, yeah, anyway. Then, like, as I grew older, and like, was able to interpret things instead of just, oh, wow, who is this person? I was like, Oh, actually, like, he’s pretty cool. And I’ve seen, like, programs that he’s done. Like, there was one where he had like, this really long black, like, skirt. And I was like, Oh, my God. Amazing. How do you not trip over that?
Andrew Sass 1:47:43
Yeah. Yeah. And I think he also skated to Lady Gaga.
Ron 1:48:14
Yes, yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:48:16
He’s — he’s a Gaga fan. So.
Ron 1:48:19
Yeah. And he’s also — he was on Dancing With — er, Skating? Dancing. Dancing.
Andrew Sass 1:48:24
Yeah.
Ron 1:48:24
Right? Yeah. Dancing with the Stars. I know there’s like a skating one, too, but that’s like, no, he wasn’t on that.
Andrew Sass 1:48:29
Yeah, like, Canada and the UK has one too, I think.
Ron 1:48:33
Um, do you watch any TikTok skaters?
Andrew Sass 1:48:37
Oh, gosh, I just started getting into TikTok. And I know my — the reasons for it was to actually like, engage with BookTok and talk about trans experience and stuff. And I’ve literally only posted skating and cat videos so far myself. I’ve seen like — Amber Glenn posts some really cool TikToks. Which I like watching and side note, Amber Glenn, I believe? is bisexual or possibly pansexual. So I adore her, that she came out while she’s still in a competitive career, but I watched her and Karen Chen, but I haven’t really seen like, if they’re — I feel like there is a skating community out there. That’s not skaters that you see on the elite level that are doing like really cool things on TikTok, and I haven’t seen any of them yet.
Ron 1:49:22
Yeah, there’s like this one guy, I’ll send you like one of his videos so that you can check out the account.
Andrew Sass 1:49:31
Okay.
Ron 1:49:31
Um, but I was just gonna ask if you’d heard of — I don’t even know how to pronounce his name because he’s Russian and Guinean. And the way his name is spelled, I’m not even going to attempt to — but it’s really cool the way that he skates. Also, most of his videos are like, outdoors —
Andrew Sass 1:49:48
Ohh, I be that’s beautiful, yeah.
Ron 1:49:49
— in this like, gorgeous like, mountainous backdrop, but like, I would almost compare like, the style of skating that he does to almost like doing hip hop dancing?
Andrew Sass 1:50:01
Oh, I think I know what you’re talking about, yeah.
Ron 1:50:04
Yeah. It’s really interesting!
Andrew Sass 1:50:06
Someone shared me a video on Facebook, which I…still have.
Ron 1:50:08
Yeah. Every once in a while, like, he has quite a few videos that like, spread beyond just, you know, the people who follow. But yeah, and there’s like a couple other — there was like someone who was a skater on TikTok, but instead of doing like, skating that’s like, you watch a performance, they actually skate designs into the ice.
Andrew Sass 1:50:34
Oh yeah!
Ron 1:50:35
And then like, show it from above. It’s really cool.
Andrew Sass 1:50:38
I mean, I think that gets its origins from school figures, which — there’s still like, a world school figures championships and stuff. And they’ll skate on black ice, so that you can follow —
Ron 1:50:49
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Sass 1:50:49
— and they’ll do — th-there’ll be like, freestyle versions of it. So not like the old school figures you’d see in competition, but they’d be making like flowers on the ice and stuff.
Ron 1:50:58
Yeah.
Andrew Sass 1:50:58
And it’s really cool. Like, the kind of edge control you need to be able to do that is out of this world. And I do not possess it. But I would love to be able to do something like that at some point. [both laughing]
Ron 1:51:11
Okay, so, to wrap up, before we answer our actual — ask our actual wrap up questions, what is a song that you would recommend to readers of Ana on the Edge?
Andrew Sass 1:51:23
Oh, gosh, I don’t listen to a lot of music when I’m drafting. And so I don’t have like, a set playlist that goes with this. But there’s a song that I think I heard from Dance Moms, please don’t judge me, years ago, called “Beautiful Day,” it’s by Elize? Or Eliz-e or something. It’s E-L-I-Z-E. And it’s just super sugary and poppy. And I just really love it. And I could see Ana and Tamar creating choreography on the rink to it. So probably have to say that.
GiannaMarie 1:52:00
Annaliese will be able to track down the — the song.
Ron 1:52:04
Yes —
GiannaMarie 1:52:06
Annaliese is way more into music than both of us.
Ron 1:52:07
— we actually have, yes. We actually have a podcast Spotify, where Annaliese selects songs based on the books that we read, to add to the playlist and also asks, anytime we have an author on, they want us to ask, and sometimes we forget, but this time we remembered! [laugh]
Andrew Sass 1:52:28
Yeah! Send that to me. I don’t actually put the books that I write to music. So I’m always thrilled if anyone else has suggestions so I can listen to it.
Ron 1:52:41
I think last time for our Ana on the Edge episode, they did one of the songs that a character skates to in Yuri!!! on Ice.
GiannaMarie 1:52:51
Oh, yeah, that would work!
Ron 1:52:56
[laughing] Okay, so —
GiannaMarie 1:52:57
Moving into the actual wrap-ups.
Ron 1:53:00
Yes, now that we are, quote unquote, done, was there anything —
GiannaMarie 1:53:04
Scroll up to the first page in your document…
Ron 1:53:07
[laugh] Was there anything that you wish we had asked you or anything you’re surprised we didn’t ask you?
Andrew Sass 1:53:15
Actually, no. Like I sometimes — and this hasn’t happened very often at all. But I always worry a little bit about people being — asking questions that are a little too personal in terms of my own coming out, which is weird, because I’m pretty open about it. But I think there’s still that kind of concern in my mind that someone’s going to ask something and I’m definitely not going to want to answer but not have a good way to get around it. But you guys didn’t do that.
Ron 1:53:17
[dead] Yaaay.
Andrew Sass 1:53:19
And I appreciated that you sent that questions early so that I knew what was coming. And yet I still couldn’t answer some of them. So sorry.
Ron 1:53:52
[laughing]
GiannaMarie 1:53:52
It’s totally fine, we didn’t even get to all of them, and we had a great conversation.
Ron 1:53:57
Yeah. Is there anything that you would like to ask us?
Andrew Sass 1:54:01
Yeah, you guys had mentioned him he maybe have talked about this and other podcasts, that you’ve mentioned, you had an origin story where — and I wanted to know how you guys met first, but you said that a little bit in college —
GiannaMarie 1:54:12
Ohhhh…
Andrew Sass 1:54:12
— so I guess I’m curious how the podcast came to be, and whose idea was it and how did you go about starting?
GiannaMarie 1:54:20
Oh my goddd.
Ron 1:54:21
Okay, so, the origin story. We definitely have mentioned it, it actually comes up a lot in interviews —
Andrew Sass 1:54:27
Oh!
Ron 1:54:27
— because people are like, curious about that. Um, so —
GiannaMarie 1:54:30
It’s — so dramatic. We — we had an interview with um, Sounds Fake, But Okay. Not an interview, I don’t know, we all collaborated and met up and we talked about a really like, poppin’ asexual book. And they were like, they should make a Lifetime movie about you and Ron! [both laughing] This is so dramatic, it follows the three act structure!
Ron 1:54:52
Yeah, so this is kind of what we started to mention actually earlier on in this episode is um, we went to the same college, we became friends, and then GiannaMarie disappeared off the face of the earth —
Andrew Sass 1:55:05
Right.
Ron 1:55:05
— due to personal issues. And then I was like — I like, asked all around, the…ex that was mentioned earlier? I literally — I messaged him, I tracked him down and messaged him to ask if she was okay. I was like, you don’t have to give me any personal details. If she doesn’t want —
Andrew Sass 1:55:22
Just need to know.
Ron 1:55:23
— can you just like literally just tell me she’s alive? And he never responded to me?
Andrew Sass 1:55:27
Oh, no!
Ron 1:55:29
Yeah, um, but yeah, he’s in the past now. So. [laughing] Um.
GiannaMarie 1:55:34
Ron outlasted him. [laugh]
Ron 1:55:37
So GiannaMarie dropped out slightly before the midpoint of our first semester.
GiannaMarie 1:55:43
It was the week of midterms. [laugh] You were like, um —
Ron 1:55:45
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:55:46
— there’s a computer science exam on Friday, are you not coming?? And I was like, I’m never responding to Ron’s texts ever again. And like, deleted you from my contacts. [both laughing]
Ron 1:55:58
Um, but then, over like winter break, I just get a call out of nowhere from GiannaMarie, who’s like, Hey, I just wanted to tell you, like, what happened to me. And I’m really sorry. And you never have to talk to me again, if you don’t want to.
GiannaMarie 1:56:12
But I miss you!
Ron 1:56:13
And we ended up talking for hours on the phone and catching up. And we’ve pretty much texted each other like almost every day ever since then, there’s
GiannaMarie 1:56:20
been times where like, you’ve been having a depressive episode. And we’ve texted like, every two days or something, but usually Ron and I are like, attached at the hip, which is kind of weird, because we are 700 miles apart normally. Um —
Ron 1:56:36
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:56:36
I think we’ve seen each other in person, like three times since we used to go to school together, but like, but not so much since the pandemic, but we used to spend like hours on the phone, like, like, I don’t know, like, three or four hours a day, like every other day —
Ron 1:56:51
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 1:56:51
— just like, while we’re cooking, like watching TV together, like, just doing homework in silence with the other person on the other side [both laugh] like —
Ron 1:57:01
Um, and so at some point, just like when we kept talking all the time, and we would talk about how we wanted each other to read books that we liked. GiannaMarie would be like, I listen to this real- a couple really great, like, book podcasts that I really like, and we should do that. Because then that would be like an excuse for us to read the same books.
GiannaMarie 1:57:25
I think my first idea was like, we should read a chapter of Brandon Sanderson and then talk about it for a podcast. And Ron was like,,,,no. [all laugh]
Ron 1:57:37
It definitely took us a long time to figure out like what we were going to do as far as a book podcast. Um, and eventually, we decided we would do, like, talking about books that we think other people should talk about more —
GiannaMarie 1:57:53
Underappreciated.
Ron 1:57:54
— which can kind of mean underappreciated books, but not necessarily, because like — it’s not like we’re —
GiannaMarie 1:57:59
Once in a while we’ll do one that like, blows up —
Ron 1:58:01
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:58:01
— like With the Fire On High. We read that so early, and then we were like, Oh, my God, other people…know this one! But that’s not usually with the books that we read. We — we have 12 regular listeners, we’d like to give you the popularity that we have.
Ron 1:58:18
[laughing] Um, but we also like, just in general, try and just — we’ll never read something like, ACOTAR, or like, stuff like that. [laugh] But like, aside from that, we’re not going — if there’s a book we really, really want to read that we think more people should read, because it’s good rep. Then we’re like, Sure, why not? Let’s read it.
Andrew Sass 1:58:44
Yeah. Makes sense.
Ron 1:58:44
Um, and then —
GiannaMarie 1:58:47
It’s definitely about uplifting people.
Ron 1:58:50
Yeah, when we first started, we were like, well, we should wait to get our feet under us and like, get more experience before we try and interview anyone.
Andrew Sass 1:59:00
I don’t think I even thought about it —
Ron 1:59:01
And the first book we did was Girls on the Verge by Sharon Biggs Waller, who went our episode came out, immediately messaged us and said, Hey, do you want to do an interview? And we were like, I guess we’re doing interviews now!! [laughing]
Andrew Sass 1:59:15
[inaudible] dive in.
GiannaMarie 1:59:16
Yeah, that was…wild. I don’t think we’d ever considered doing — I don’t think I had ever considered doing an interviews before that. And then suddenly, we were speaking with this woman, like, [laughing] we had no idea how to interview a person.
Ron 1:59:28
It was definitely on my radar, just because like, I was a creative writing major. So I knew, like, authors are real people. And it’s not that hard to get in touch with an author, if you try. So I was like, yeah, we could theoretically do that. But up until we started the podcast. GiannaMarie was not quite in that mindset and was like, “authors! Wow!!” [laughing] And I was like, Oh, yeah, I’ve been talking to XYZ authors who we’ve talked about their book. And GiannaMarie’s like, “wuuuut?!” [laughing]
Andrew Sass 1:59:41
Yeah. That’s how I feel about authors too, though, to be honest, like Brad Pitt, whatever, but like —
GiannaMarie 2:00:08
I know! Who cares about Brad Pitt?
Andrew Sass 2:00:09
— someone who’s written a book I love? I’m just like — Yeah, I mean, sorry, Brad and… Angelina? Is that what they’re doing? I don’t know.
GiannaMarie 2:00:16
I don’t even know about him.
Andrew Sass 2:00:18
But yeah. Authors are superstars. To me.
Ron 2:00:21
Yes, authors are superstars, but I don’t know, I just don’t generally don’t find authors hard to talk to, like —
Andrew Sass 2:00:27
Yeah, no, they shouldn’t be.
Ron 2:00:29
Um, one time, I got to go see Toni Morrison speak. And that was definitely on a whole other level.
Andrew Sass 2:00:35
Yeah.
Ron 2:00:36
And I went through the signing line. And I basically said nothing, because I was like, What can I possibly say? That would like, like, matter in the scope of Toni Morrison. [laughing] But.
GiannaMarie 2:00:56
Oh my god. Um, so we already talked a lot about the upcoming projects with Ellen Outside the Lines and Camp Quiltbag —
Andrew Sass 2:01:04
Mm-hmm!
GiannaMarie 2:01:05
But could you tell us a little bit about the anthologies? The — the work that is out that people like, might not have access to or know about?
Andrew Sass 2:01:14
Yeah, so Ana on the Edge is the only book that’s actually available at this time, I’m not sure when this is airing, but the next book that I have coming out, is actually a personal essay in a nonfiction anthology that I think is being marketed as YA. I’m not really sure because it’s like, a UK imprint of Penguin Random House. So it’s possible that the YA designator there’s a little bit different, but it’s called Allies. And it’s nonfiction essays by YA authors that talk about all the various forms of allyship, either being an ally themselves, needing an ally, or even screw ups that people have made and like, learn from. And they all come from our personal experience. So for me, I wrote about a year in my life as I was coming out initially as a transgender man, and still kind of getting stuck on whether I actually identify as a male. And the people that I met during that time, who kind of up- uplifted me and took me as I was, even if I wasn’t quite sure what that was yet. And that comes out on July 1 in the UK, and September 7, I think in the US, and it’s through DK, which is an imprint of Penguin Random House. And then of course, we mentioned This is Our Rainbow, which is an all queer, first of its kind, I believe, middle grade anthology that focuses on queer experiences, written by queer authors. And I believe there’s also some mixed medium in there as well. I haven’t seen it yet. Unfortunately. I’m dying — and like, chomping at the bit to get to read these stories myself, but I believe that there’s some graphic novel-esque —
GiannaMarie 2:02:52
Ohh!
Andrew Sass 2:02:52
— like, comic type things too, and possibly some like, verse, poetry in there as well. So it’ll be really great because it’s also a mixed genre. So it’s not just contemporary stories. My story is a contemporary story about Kai, who I mentioned from Camp Quiltbag as well, and how e had recently quit gymnastics and is kind of grappling with trying to find a sport that fits, even though e’s non-binary, so. That was sort of my story. But I know that there’s like non-binary pirate stories in there, and like, fantasy and sci fi and stuff, too. So it’s — it’s just intended to be a collection that’s really inclusive of a lot of different experiences and aimed at middle school readers. But I know a lot of us adults like to read this stuff, too.
GiannaMarie 2:03:36
Yeah, that sounds great.
Andrew Sass 2:03:37
So that’s coming on October 19th, yeah. And yeah, that’s gonna be really exciting when it comes out to see the reaction of people who read it. And then, of course, I mentioned Ellen Outside the Lines is out next spring, and Camp Quiltbag will be out the following spring in 2023, because publishing moves very slowly. [laugh] So yeah, lots of things to look forward to.
GiannaMarie 2:04:01
I — Ron, I think we should scrap our plans. We’re just going to pick all of the authors from This is Our Rainbow, and we’re going to read the thing that they wrote, like, like a novel, and then we’re going to interview them, and then we’re going to have just like a collection, like — like we are collecting Pokémon, but it’s going to be authors —
Ron 2:04:18
[laughing]
GiannaMarie 2:04:18
— from This is Our Rainbow. We’ve already got two down.
Andrew Sass 2:04:22
That would be amazing.
Ron 2:04:24
Sounds good.
GiannaMarie 2:04:25
Okay, with that as our plan, I think — I think we’re about done? [laughing] Are we done?
Ron 2:04:35
The last — well, our very last, always last —
GiannaMarie 2:04:38
Oh book reccs! Oh my god, okay, book reccs, yes, of course.
Ron 2:04:40
— thing is just book reccs for people who enjoyed Ana on the Edge.
Andrew Sass 2:04:43
Yeah, so I’ve already mentioned a couple of them. If you’re into queer, trans kids who are into sports, I would highly recommend The Passing Playbook by Isaac Fitzsimons, which is out on June 1. So you preorder it now, you’ll get it like in two weeks, basically. I also really enjoyed Kit Rosewater’s the Derby Daredevils series, that I would kind of call lower middle grade in terms of reading level. It’s kind of a hybrid story that also has illustrations in it. And it’s just really wonderful. There are two books in the series that are out so far, and the third one comes out in June. And the first book follows Kenzie, who is trying to form a d- a Roller Derby team, I had to think about the term- terminology for a second. And Kenzie’s dad is a trans guy. And it just like, referenced, it’s not like, a big deal within the story, but I love that that rep is there. And Kenzie’s also sort of grappling with her first crush, which happens to be on a girl. So it’s just a really wonderful inclusive book for younger readers.
GiannaMarie 2:05:47
That’s adorable.
Andrew Sass 2:05:48
Yeah, it’s super cute. If you haven’t read it, you should totally do it. You can read it in like an hour, and it’s — it’s just so wonderful. And I really love Kacen Callender’s King and the Dragonflies, which I think a lot of people have read because it won the National Book Award this year. Cattywampus by Ash Van Otterloo is also really great. It’s a contemporary fantasy that’s set kind of in Appalachia, and one of the characters is intersex and trying to grapple with the fact that her chromosomes don’t align with being traditionally female, so she’s worried that she’s not going to get her which powers because of that.
GiannaMarie 2:06:21
Ahhh!
Andrew Sass 2:06:22
Oh, last one would be Pepper’s Rules for Secret Sleuthing by Briana McDonald, which has a queer girl main character, and a secondary character is a trans boy, who is just part of the narrative, and I think it’s a really wonderful book as well.
Ron 2:06:36
Yay. These all sounds awesome.
Andrew Sass 2:06:41
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 2:06:42
Um, yes, I’m very excited to add all of these to my, to my rapidly shrinking TB-TBR.
Andrew Sass 2:06:48
That’s impressive. That’s actually impressive. Mine keeps getting bigger.
Ron 2:06:51
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 2:06:52
Y’all. I had like 500 books on that recently, and it’s down to like, 300
Andrew Sass 2:06:57
Wow.
Ron 2:06:58
Oh my god!
GiannaMarie 2:06:58
Things are moving. I’m not a great sign, but [laugh] it’s happening. Um, I don’t think I have anything else to add, other than Zenobia July, which we love, love, love and has a lot of similarities with this as a like, middle grade trans book. Ron?
Ron 2:07:17
Um, yeah, I don’t really have anything else to add. So I think…that wraps us up.
Andrew Sass 2:07:26
Yeah, wow!
GiannaMarie 2:07:27
So we’ll all say goodbye and Annalise will make it sound good. [all laugh] Okay, thank you so much for like, squeezing us into your day with like, your appointments and your stressful apartment hunting and etc. and timezones.
Andrew Sass 2:07:45
Yeah, thanks for inviting me.
GiannaMarie 2:07:46
Yeah, this was really fun. I definitely hope to see you in the future with more books.
Andrew Sass 2:07:54
Me too, obviously. [laugh] Yeah, thank you both so much for your time. And for the questions, they were thoughtful and I hadn’t gotten to answer most of them before. So it was a lot of fun.
GiannaMarie 2:08:04
We’re weirdos.
Ron 2:08:05
That is always our goal. Our goal is always to try and find things that will be interesting to answer, instead of “where do you get your ideas from?”
GiannaMarie 2:08:14
[mimicking] “Do you have any advice for an aspiring writer?” [sirens in background] Okay, I think that closes us out, thank you so much. We had a great time. We will definitely now be annoying Twitter friends. I will be your annoying Twitter friend.
Andrew Sass 2:08:28
Perfect.
Annaliese 2:08:29
Hello everyone, thank you for listening to this week’s episode of Something Old, Something Debut, I hope you enjoyed it. If you’d like to contact us on social media, our Instagram is @some_old_some_debut and our Twitter is @debutold. You can find AJ Sass on their website sassinsf.com, and on Twitter and Instagram, both @matokah. That’s M-A-T-O-K-A-H. He’s also self-reportedly occasionally on TikTok with that same username. The song that I would like to recommend to you guys this week is “Beautiful Day” by Elize, which I did find on Spotify after AJ’s recommendation. And as usual, that song will be available on our music reccs playlist on Spotify, which you can find by going to our Twitter and clicking the link in our bio. Also transcripts are available. If you would like to read a transcript of this or any episode, they will be available on Medium, which you can find by clicking the link in any of our social media bios. That’s it for this week, stay safe and healthy, and we’ll see you in three weeks for a new episode. Bye!
