Something Old, Something Debut Transcript Episode 60: Song for a Whale by Lynne Kelly Part 2
SPEAKERS
GiannaMarie, Annaliese, Ron
CONTENT WARNINGS: this book contains descriptions of a beached and dying whale, ableism, academic ableism, anti-Deaf bigotry, grieving a grandparent, intentional linguistic and cultural isolation, depression during grief, worry for an older adult, a parent who does not speak fluent ASL, parents not knowing where a child has gone, mild homesickness.
[INTRO: sound of book pages flipping]
Ron 00:03
Hello! Welcome to Something Old, Something Debut, the podcast where we alternate new books and old books we think you should know about. I’m Ron and I use he and they pronouns.
GiannaMarie 00:14
And I’m GiannaMarie and I use she/her pronouns. And today we are finishing Song for a Whale by Lynne Kelly, which was just so delightful. It is chapters 25 to the end, this was like? A fantastic middle grade book. It was one of the best books of my year actually.
Ron 00:31
Yes, it’s a really good book.
GiannaMarie 00:34
It’s — great.
Ron 00:35
And gave me vibes. I get to this at the end, but like, it gave me major vibes of one of my other like, favorite books ever. So I’m definitely recommending that one at the end.
GiannaMarie 00:45
Is this the book that Annaliese had to cut you talking about? Because you talked about it so much the last time now?
Ron 00:51
No. No.
GiannaMarie 00:52
Okay, I’m excited then. New information. All right, but before -
Ron 00:56
Not really. Like, it’s a book I’ve already talked about, even on this podcast, but.
GiannaMarie 01:00
Not new information! I’m still excited! [Ron laughs] But before we get into the details, we will do our little get to know you section as always. So Ron, what is your recommendation this week?
Ron 01:13
So I actually did in like, the last few minutes before we started recording come up with a better recommendation question. My question is, what is uh, this is similar to a question that I asked last time, actually. But it doesn’t matter, because I’m asking it again. What is a upcoming release… that you are excited about?
GiannaMarie 01:40
Ooh, um.
Ron 01:41
That you would suggest other people look into?
GiannaMarie 01:46
Are you just going? Are you just going straight for? Is this supposed to be a creative answer? Or do you want to open up for me to talk about Kristin Cashore?
Ron 01:59
You can talk about whatever you want to talk about!
GiannaMarie 02:01
Okay, well. [both laughing] I was like, I’m thinking I’m thinking! Um, and then I remembered [laughing] the light of my life. I’m so excited for Winterkeep. It’s coming out in January, we only have to survive a few more months. I’m so excited. I’m the cover for winter keeper came out yesterday where, um, for when we for when we are recording, and I just like, spent the whole day texting Ron about it. Like, I’m looking lovingly at my shelf that only has my top favorites on it. Like, I will I will always love Kristin Cashore’s books above mostly everything. Um, but aside from that, something I’ve been thinking about a lot lately, um, is the the next book in the Crown of Feathers series, which I don’t know what book that is, but I was reading — I’m reading Fireborne, that Ron has recommended on this podcast before, and the entire time I’m reading it. I’m just like, I want more phoenix riders though. Like, normally, I love dragon-riding stuff love so much — [Ron chuckling] — but these Phoenix writers got into me so much. It’s expected publication 2021. God only knows what that means. But it’s called Wings of Shadow. I’m already very hyped for it. And the other book that I’m like thinking about that’s not out yet, is the sequel to The Daughters of Nri by Reni K. Amaya. So that book was amazing. And I’ve thought about it every day since I’ve finished it. So the book that will be coming out is also in 2021. March 30 2021, called Descendants of the First and that also has a cover. It’s so beautiful. It’s so beautiful. Okay, I’m done. Go, Ron.
Ron 04:11
Well, I was only gonna say one and now you said so many that I feel like I need to say a bunch too.
GiannaMarie 04:16
I’m sorry!
Ron 04:16
Okay, so first, I’m just gonna say one that I wasn’t originally going to say. But that does definitely apply. And that I’m pretty sure we’re planning to do on the podcast. I don’t remember if we actually put it on for like a set date yet, but we’re definitely planning on doing it. And that’s a middle grade novel called Ana on the Edge —
GiannaMarie 04:37
Yes!
Ron 04:37
By A.J. Sass. And that comes out October 20th, actually, which is exciting. I didn’t realize that came out that soon. And it is about a non-binary middle school figure skater, which I can relate to because when I was — I’d say I was the most into figure skating when I was in middle school. Although I did it since, like, throughout, before, and my freshman year of high school. But like, middle school was definitely when I was the most intense in figure skating. So I’m very excited for this story. And there’s also like, a trans boy figure skater in the story as well. Which, it just mentions that in the jacket, so. Another — another book that I’m really, really, really excited for is oh god, what’s it called? The football one.
GiannaMarie 05:36
Oh, yes yes!
Ron 05:37
What’s it called?
GiannaMarie 05:38
The one where —
Ron 05:38
May the Best Man Win. Is that what it’s called? Yes! It’s about um, one trans boy competing with the football — the football quarterback— with his ex!
GiannaMarie 05:47
— to get, uh, to become homecoming king?
Ron 05:51
Yeah,
GiannaMarie 05:51
Yeah.
Ron 05:52
With his ex, I’m pretty sure it is. It’s called May the Best Man Win by Z.R. Ellor. “A throwdown battle for homecoming king between between a trans teen and the boy he dumped last summer.”
GiannaMarie 06:05
Oooh! [both laughing]
Ron 06:08
Um, so the book that I made up this question for, and the book that I’m super excited to talk about, is a book that is coming out this October — October 6th, I believe.
GiannaMarie 06:18
Yup.
Ron 06:18
That’s what I just googled. And it’s called Apple: Skin to Core by Eric Gansworth. And Eric Ganzworth was not only a professor of mine and my thesis advisor, when I went to school undergrad at Canisius, he is also on the long list for a National Book Award for this book. And I am like, so psyched about that. And it would be super cool if he gets shortlisted too, that would be like, amazing. But even being on the long list is a pretty big deal. And just a blurb about the book that was in an article talking about how he is one of the only two authors who has a, like, young adult, novel in verse on the long list. So the little thing that the article says about his book is that “Gansworth’s memoir explores the legacy of in-depth injustices and abuse against the Onondaga Nation through verse and imagery, and is a declarative reclaiming of the derogatory descriptor ‘apple.’”
GiannaMarie 07:25
Mmm! That’s very exciting. We — we’ve — we are definitely planning to squeeze that into our October. Um, so my question for this week is, this is the last time that we’re going to be doing kind of our normal format, which is a weekly podcast, and we have two weeks of an older book, and then two weeks of a newer book, because Ron is in grad school now, and he needs some time. And, um, we’re gonna put a few more weeks in between some things. And also, because we’ve been overwhelmed by how many great new releases are out. And we’ve been having trouble finding enough, like, awesome old books to hype up. So we’re going to do it in a, you know, one to two ratio instead of a one to one ratio from now on. So.
Ron 08:17
Yeah. Which isn’t to say that there aren’t tons of great older books, it’s just that it’s so much harder to find them, that for the like, sake of our own time, it’s easier to give ourselves some extra time to find the old books and do research on them before we read them like we also do with the new books, but it’s obviously harder to find resources about older stuff than newer stuff that’s coming out right now. Because people are posting about that stuff like crazy.
GiannaMarie 08:46
So where I was going with that, um, is, well, A) hit us with your old book reccs, please, we definitely always want that. Um, so it’s been a little bit over a year since we started this project. So — it’s 13 months, I just counted. So we have this little 13 month podcast baby between us. So as we close out, season one, what is like, you think maybe the most valuable thing that you’ve learned or are bringing with you from here?
Ron 09:21
Ooh.
GiannaMarie 09:22
I’ve been waiting for so long to —
Ron 09:24
For a second, I thought you were gonna ask like, oh, what’s your favorite book that we’ve read? And I was like, No, I’m not answering that question! Stop! [laughing]
GiannaMarie 09:31
I thought about it, and I knew you would have a meltdown. [laughing]
Ron 09:35
Well, because I also think like, we’ve read a lot of very different books, and I don’t think it’s really fair to choose, especially when —
GiannaMarie 09:42
Yeah.
Ron 09:43
— I think very highly of most of them. So.
GiannaMarie 09:45
That’s the whole point of this is —
Ron 09:46
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 09:46
— is that we love these books.
Ron 09:48
Yeah. Um, hmm. The most valuable thing I’ve learned… I don’t know. [snickering] I guess a not super serious answer would be that I have learned, like, how long it takes me to read. And that it takes me kind of a long time, um.
GiannaMarie 10:11
Oh, okay, I was going to say, um, that I’ve definitely become less of a people pleaser than I was at the beginning. Because I was very, like, I was always like, bending over backwards to make everything as, like, as good for you as possible, like, at my own expense, because I was terrified that you were gonna just leave me as a friend. [both laughing] Um, so after, like, I guess we like had to kind of intensify our communication skills, since we had this project between us. And after working on that for a long time, I definitely am, like, much more settled in that you won’t hate me. And that I can assert my needs with people that I care about instead of people that I’m willing to make enemies, such as, you know, teachers and such. Um. Yeah.
Ron 11:13
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I definitely agree that something you’ve gotten a lot better at is like, being straightforward about when, like, hey, maybe today isn’t a great day to record after all! [both laughing]
GiannaMarie 11:26
Yeah, I was, um, I’m not great at, let’s say, keeping — making and keeping friends. [both laughing] So I was always like, if I assert this one small desire of mine, will it be the tipping point that I don’t understand, and then I will be alone in the world?? [laughing] Like, it was such a serious problem for me.
Ron 11:50
So I think something that I have learned which going into this, I already was beginning to have an idea of before we started, but especially have a better idea of now is just like, how easy it can be to get ahold of an author if you really want to talk to them. Like there’s definitely some authors, especially if they’re really busy with a lot of stuff. Or if they have, like, big stuff happening with their books, right now, it can be really hard to get in touch with them. But for the most part, if you’re just trying to talk to an author whose life isn’t exploding, for one reason or another, it’s pretty easy to talk to them. And they’re all pretty excited to talk to you. It’s not like, author, like, I already had an idea before we started up like, yeah, authors are just like, regular people, because I want to be one, and I’m just a regular person, pretty much. [both laughing] But I think the thing that was really like, driven home is how easy it is to get into contact with an author, even if like, they’re completely outside of your circle. Like, even if you don’t have any connection to them whatsoever, and you can’t be like, hey, like, someone I know knows you and can vouch for me or something like that, they’ll still probably talk to you.
GiannaMarie 13:14
I’ve definitely become very bold at like, saying like, Oh my god, I just finished this book! And then adding the author on Twitter and then they’re like, maybe 6 out of 10, 8out of 10 times they’ll be like, Oh, hey!! I’m glad you loved the book!
Ron 13:33
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 13:36
We’ve definitely like, become casual friends with a couple of authors. [laughing]
Ron 13:41
Yeah, I think the biggest one is probably — like, the person we talk to the most, anyway, is definitely Rosiee.
GiannaMarie 13:50
Oh, you think?
Ron 13:51
One thing that I — Oh, definitely, at least, at least for me. Like one thing that I definitely have noticed is that one of my like, IRL friends who’s ace, heard of Rosiee because of me, and like, is a big follow — like, probably one of Rosiee’s most… close followers at this point, just like constantly liking and commenting on like, every post [both laughing] and I’m like, Oh, my God. But also like Rebecca Podos and I watch a lot of the same TV shows. And like -
GiannaMarie 14:27
When she started watching SHE-RA, it was like, a Twitter-wide celebration. [laughing]
Ron 14:33
Yes. When she started watching She-Ra it was partially the result of me and Rosiee both tweeting at her being like, you need to watch this show, you don’t understand!! But also she watches Magicians, and like, not enough people talk about that show. Like, just online and she like, posted about it a lot at one point and I was just like, [small voice] hello! [laughing]
GiannaMarie 15:02
Sarah Porter literally interviewed me at like, 10pm on Mother’s Day — not interviewed me. I — like, she just answered some questions I had about my project that I was doing on her work. Like, she was just like, Can I — can I call you at like, 10pm after I put my toddler to bed? Like, like, yes?! Talk to me, please. Like, she always likes — anytime I have good news about something, she’s the first person to like my tweet.
Ron 15:31
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 15:31
Like, she ignores all the comic tweets, and then it’s like a real thing. And she’s like, Yeah, I got your back. [Ron laughing] I definitely tweet about comic books too much. [laughing] Okay, so our last episode of season one. This was a good book to wrap it up. Um -
Ron 15:53
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And also Sharon Biggs Waller, who’s like, really the person that we started out with, like, we weren’t even trying to get interviews from the beginning. We were like, we’ll wait till we’re better at podcasting! And then we’ll do interviews! But we did her book first. And she was like, Oh, my God, do you guys want to do an interview? Like she contacted us, and we were like, okay, yeah, definitely! And she’s not on Twitter, but she is probably one of the people I communicate with the most on Instagram.
GiannaMarie 16:25
I don’t even remember us thinking about wanting to do interviews in the future when we started.
Ron 16:32
We talked about it.
GiannaMarie 16:34
I don’t even remember it being on the horizon. [Ron laughing] Because I remember being completely shook. She was so encouraging, too.
Ron 16:46
Yeah, um -
GiannaMarie 16:47
Like, she made us feel way more legit than we actually were. Because our episode with her was literally the third episode we ever did.
Ron 16:55
Um, okay, so content warnings. So I’m just pretty much going over the same ones as last time, for the most part, um, ableism shows up. The very beginning of the book, has a beached whale, which is referenced throughout the book, but the only the beginning is very, like graphic about that. Depression, specifically with, um, with -
GiannaMarie 17:27
- the grieving grandma.
Ron 17:29
Yeah. And, like, missing a dead relative is like, a very big part of this. In this second half there’s some fear about the wellbeing of like, a older adult who is supposed to be like, looking out for Iris, who’s a child. So there’s some stressful passages in the second half, where it’s like, Oh, God, where’s grandma?? Is she okay? Like, what’s going on? And spoiler, but whatever this whole thing is spoiler, like, every time that happens, it turns out fine, but it is pretty stressful like, when it’s happening, and you don’t know what’s going on. Um, feeling isolated. And having like, not a good system with communication is definitely a big thing in this book. Honestly, some of the saddest, like, darkest parts of this book are the whale -
GiannaMarie 18:28
Whale point of view?!
Ron 18:30
They’re so sad! [laughing]
GiannaMarie 18:35
Let me tell you the, the ebook copy has a little like, a little image of the whale on the, um -
Ron 18:43
Yeah, the book does too.
GiannaMarie 18:44
But the audio book, it just transitions into like -
Ron 18:47
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 18:47
- the deepest angst with no explanation?? And you’re like, Oh, it’s the whale. Oh, okay. Okay. [both laughing]
Ron 18:59
Um, and I guess something else would just be that in the second half of the book, her family is — Iris’s family is very concerned about her being gone and they don’t really know where she is. She like, doesn’t tell them where she is up until they receive a postcard a while after she left. And then they’re finally like, oh, okay, Alaska. And there’s also she gets homesick. I’d say that’s pretty much everything I can think of.
GiannaMarie 19:36
I’m going to say not only linguistic and cultural deprivation, but intentional linguistic and cultural deprivation.
Ron 19:44
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 19:44
Because I would like to move right on into this so I can get it out of the way.
Ron 19:50
Yeah. Okay.
GiannaMarie 19:50
So, I don’t know if y’all remember last episode, how we were like, I wonder why she can’t go to Deaf school? Like, it seems like she’s having a really hard time? And Ron is like, it must be because they can’t afford to send her there because there’s no reason — like, her — her grandparents are saying she should go to the Deaf school, she wants to, her Deaf friend wants her to go there. Like, everyone agrees that this is healthier. But “that ship has sailed.” “Iris has gotten used to it.” And I, like, you could’ve — steam was coming out of my ears, because her grandmother actually goes to her mother and she’s like, you should really send her to this school that has all the Deaf kids in it. And her mom says, “I don’t want to lose her if she’s around other Deaf people all the time. She won’t need me anymore.” So it was all intentional??
Ron 20:42
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 20:42
And — I was — the last podcast episode, I was like, yeah, like usually, in this case, I would say it’s probably about control, and like — deprivation and control. When you have a disabled child, that’s very common way to abuse them. But like, her parents seemed pretty good.
Ron 21:01
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 21:01
They seem like they care about her. BUT GUESS WHAT?! It was about deprivation and control!! Because her mother, for some reason, thought that if she had more than two people in her life that she could talk to, she just wouldn’t talk to her mom anymore. Like, wouldn’t have a family anymore?? Like that’s really glossed over in the book. Like -
Ron 21:23
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 21:23
- she’s like, yeah, you’ll always be my mom! And I’m like, this was high key abusive behavior, because there was a Deaf school right there! Like this — she was there for two years, with only the translator. And — the translator, her one Deaf friend, and then -
Ron 21:43
Interpreter.
GiannaMarie 21:45
Yes, the interpreter, her one Deaf friend who doesn’t go to the same school, and then her grandma who now lives in a nursing home and she doesn’t get to see that often. Like that.
Ron 21:53
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 21:55
That is just absolutely unacceptable parenting to me. [long sigh] Okay, it’s off my chest now.
Ron 22:05
Yeah. And the one thing that the mom does say is the mom’s like, Well, when I was growing up, I felt like, like, you and dad — she says to the grandma, obviously — like you and dad had like your whole own little world that I was left out of. So like, I think that does begin to get into the mom’s mental health a little bit. And like, how this circumstance was a result of like, the mom needing to figure her own stuff out. Not that it makes it better or anything, but I think that’s just like an important to note on like, what’s going on here? And -
GiannaMarie 22:38
It actually made it for me, because she, if she grew up hearing in a Deaf household, and she’s like, Ooh, I feel left out because all of these Deaf people are having a great time and I’m not part of it.
Ron 22:49
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 22:49
How can she not understand her Deaf child?
Ron 22:51
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 22:52
Is left out because everyone else is hearing in her household and her world?
Ron 22:56
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 22:56
And they’re communicating in a way she can’t be a part of like, HOW DO YOU NOT GET THAT? Oh my god.
Ron 23:01
What I think is the important aspect of having this be included in the book, though, is that like, this is a middle grade book. And a lot of like, a lot of Deaf kids don’t necessarily have access to going to a Deaf school.
GiannaMarie 23:20
Yeah.
Ron 23:21
And so I do think it’s good that it addresses like that aspect of things. And so even though like, there’s never a point in this book where Iris ever thinks that like, she’s broken, or like, she needs to, like, fit into — like, there’s always definitely a strong sense of like, Deaf community throughout this book, even when she feels disconnected from it. And so I think that’s good from a standpoint of like, you know, we don’t need to get into like, self-hatred thoughts and feelings of being broken, because like, I don’t think that’s constructive and I think it’s good to show — that like, that’s not true. But I do think it’s also good to show on the page like, that it can be isolating, and that it can be difficult, because I think a lot of kids who would read this would be in a situation where they feel those things too.
GiannaMarie 24:13
Big agree. I think this was a really unique take, and I enjoyed it very much. My main point was that if there was going to be this really abusive reason why she’s cut off from Deaf culture and community, like, I really wanted to see someone actually chastise her mom for it. [bitter laugh]
Ron 24:37
Yeah,
GiannaMarie 24:38
Like, explain — instead of comforting her, like, she’ll always need her mom! Maybe be like, hey, that’s really, really not okay. If you love Iris, you need to give her access to all of the tools that she has to succeed in whatever she needs to do.
Ron 24:56
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 24:57
All right, I’m ready to talk about other things. I just — when I read that, I was — you could have like, fried an egg on my skin. I was so angry. I like, almost texted Annaliese in a rage, and I was like, I’m too angry to even type it out! Like, I can’t even — I can’t even compose sentences about this. [despairing laugh] It was — that was the biggest twist I was not expecting in this second half of the book?? Like, we made all of these predictions and that was definitely not on the table for me.
Ron 25:31
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 25:33
Um. I do really love the second half of this book though. I think some of our predictions did come true and some of them were like, better than our predictions.
Ron 25:44
I do like that — something else that we talked about for a while last time was obviously everything going on with what’s her — name’s Nina, right? The girl from school who thinks that she knows sign? And so something that ends up coming up.. in this half is like, Iris tells someone else about Nina and is like, haha, that girl’s like, so annoying and everything. And the character she says it to is like, you know, like you’re — you are being kinda mean like, if you think you can communicate with a whale maybe you can like, be a little bit nicer to this Nina girl [laughing] who has no idea what’s going on. And then at the end -
GiannaMarie 26:22
That’s an interesting way that you read that [Ron laughing], because I did not read it that sympathetically to Nina at all. I read it as Bennie didn’t really care about Nina and was just — didn’t even say like, be nicer to her. It’s just like, Oh, she seems silly trying to speak ASL, but no sillier than you trying to speak whale!
Ron 26:43
Yeah. Which, like, cuz before that, I think the context of this is when, like, when Iris is saying these things Bennie kind of just like, looks at her for a minute before saying anything and is like, I don’t see how this is like as funny and weird, like, and bad as you think it is. Like, it seems like this girl was trying at least, even if she was not doing it the right way.
GiannaMarie 27:12
Ehhh…
Ron 27:13
Um, and I think it just addresses that like, that — Iris definitely could have been a little bit more understanding. And then like, because it’s very clear throughout, like, we never see a time where Iris really tries to be nice to Nina ever. And that’s really why things escalate.
GiannaMarie 27:44
The whole thing escalated because she saw Nina walking by and she was like, you know, I should give her a chance. And she asks her, What did you think about Blue 55. And that’s what started the whole thing. She started a conversation with Nina!
Ron 27:59
But she starts the conversation with Nina like, eh, I guess, whatever.
GiannaMarie 28:05
No one told her to, though, she was still trying.
Ron 28:08
I suppose. But I still think it’s good that it does address like, that — they both were not — no person in this situation was in the right.
GiannaMarie 28:22
True.
Ron 28:23
And at the very end, she goes back to school, because she has to finish out the school year at her school before she switches to the Deaf school the next year. And so at the very end, she goes back to school to finish out the year. And Nina actually has been working on sign language more because she realized [laughing] that she sucks. And she actually says something coherent! And Iris is like, Oh, wow. [both laughing]
GiannaMarie 28:52
Um, yeah, I — I still find Nina really annoying and I don’t think she has any interest in Iris as a person. Like, [sycophantic voice] You inspired me to learn sign! [normal voice] But like, then we can contrast her with Bennie, who just, like picks up lots of sign through the couple of days that she gets to know Iris -
Ron 29:12
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 29:12
- just because that’s how to talk to her. Like, she’s actually interested — the two of them are interested in each other.
Ron 29:19
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 29:19
Whereas Nina doesn’t seem to be interested in Iris at all.
Ron 29:25
Yeah, that’s definitely true. It’s just… I’m glad that it also shows that like… Iris needed to do a little bit of growing in that situation as well.
GiannaMarie 29:38
Can we talk about something else that should’ve not been glossed over? But totally was?
Ron 29:43
What?
GiannaMarie 29:44
The fact that Iris just… — like a madwoman -
Ron 29:51
Leaps into the water?
GiannaMarie 29:53
- in Oregon! Just… just swims out to this like, 45–50 foot whale, just -
Ron 30:05
[laughs]
GiannaMarie 30:05
- like, and all the adults are like, We’re glad you’re okay. Like, we heard someone scream and splash, so we brought the sanctuary people over in case of a rescue. And she needed rescuing.
Ron 30:18
And the sanctuary — sanctuary woman sees a, like, middle-school-aged girl in the water and is like, Oh, yeah, that must be Iris. [laughs]
GiannaMarie 30:25
YES! She’s like, hands around her mouth, Iris? [Ron laughing] Of course it’s Iris! Who else would — like, it — like, the first two pages of this book is like, Do you know what’s really dangerous? Getting into the water and trying to touch a humungous whale! [Ron laughing] And then she’s never chastised for it. Like, I definitely understand -
Ron 30:48
I mean, she is grounded.
GiannaMarie 30:49
She’s grounded for running away from home, not for getting in the water! And, like, getting in a whale’s personal space. [laughing]
Ron 30:58
But I think she’s also kind of grounded for the whole situation.
GiannaMarie 31:02
Even the sanctuary people don’t tell her that that was a bad idea, and that it should never be repeated. Like — — like everyone is like, I understand that this whale is the love of your life. I get it. I know that it moved you to cross 4000 miles to see him. But no one is like, But maybe you could do it from a ship next time.
Ron 31:09
[laughs] [laughs]
GiannaMarie 31:23
Like, no one says like, Seriously, Iris, you’re 12, that could have really injured or killed you. He could have hurt you without even trying. Like obviously, he was very, like, he — he did like you, and a lot of times, whales are very curious and, like, benevolent towards the little itty bitty humans in their space. But like, for real he’s humongous and humans are sooo delicate. [noise of horror] [frustrated shout]
Ron 31:53
I do have a feeling that that conversation probably happened off-page -
GiannaMarie 31:56
I hope so!
Ron 31:57
- but it would have been nice if it was just like, slightly acknowledged on page. Yes.
GiannaMarie 32:01
[stressed laughter] I was — she went in with all of her clothes on! I was like, You’re gonna drown and freeze to death. This is the end. Like, that was way more dramatic than I thought it was going to be. Although, what was I going to say? I remember I was complaining about um, how, like, romantically they described the friendship between Cora and Ampersand on the book flap. And then I was like, it’s not “Forbidden Friendship”-y enough. And then they literally do the “Forbidden Friendship” — they literally do the “Forbidden Friendship” thing in this book too! She’s like, “I crossed 4000 miles, the last few feet would have to be up to him.” And then he like, nuzzles her arm and I’m like -
Ron 32:55
[laughs]
GiannaMarie 32:55
- like stunned speechless. Like, like… [sigh] we can trace this for — we can trace the “Forbidden Friendship” moment, actually, back to like the 1990 like, Spirit Rider cartoon DreamWorks animated movie [laughing] touching the horse on the head? Like — but now this is so culturally pervasive! [extended laughing] Okay, I’m done. I’m done laughing.
Ron 33:37
[chuckling] I knew you were gonna talk about that.
GiannaMarie 33:39
[laughs] I mean, you’ve known me for longer than like, a day, of course I would.
Ron 33:47
So just to briefly summarize this half. In case you’re confused why she jumped into the water in Oregon, not Alaska. So they get on the cruise. On the cruise, um… basically, the cruise is great for Grandma and really like, just puts her in a whole new state of mind. And we can talk about that a little bit. And also, Iris ends up making a friend with a girl, Bennie, on the cruise. They get to Alaska, and then, Oh crap! Blue 55’s finally singing and so we actually know where Blue 55 is, aaand it’s Washington. And so then, um, momentary panic. Then they make a new plan. They make it to Washington, and obviously, Blue 55 is there, also her family’s there because they figured out she’d be there. They were like, Oh, that’s where the whale is. That’s where she’s gonna be. We’re gonna go get our kid, or make sure she’s okay. So obviously she meets Blue 55 in the water and actually, like, really meets Blue 55. [laugh] And then the family’s like, Yeah, you’re grounded. But you can finish out the cruise with your grandma. So you guys get back on the cruise and come home that way. And then you’re grounded after that. But also she gets to go to the Deaf school the next school year.
GiannaMarie 35:17
Yeah.
Ron 35:17
And that’s basically everything.
GiannaMarie 35:20
Um, so much more of the half — this half of the book was spent in transit than I thought there would be.
Ron 35:27
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 35:27
Um, we definitely both thought that like, most of the second half was going to be in Alaska, and then it wasn’t going to address any of her problems at home. But no, it does address her problems at home once she gets home. And she spends most of the trip chasing Blue 55 to Alaska, and then they have to turn around and they’re — they’re trying to think like, Maybe we’ll rent a car, we’re not going to make it in time! Like they’re tracking him on an app while they look at the boat’s course. Like Bennie is all in, like, her mom works on the cruise. So she comes out and lives on the cruise every summer. And she’s, like, helping Iris with this. Andi and her squad from Appleton are, um — they are — they flew down to Oregon to a different sanctuary, which Iris calls the Land of Misfit Toys, which is all animals that um, for one reason or another can’t really be out in the wild by themselves.
Ron 36:28
I think that’s like any sanctuary. It’s just the only sanctuary she’s been to.
GiannaMarie 36:32
Oh, I thought Appleton was more of a research facility that didn’t hold large animals.
Ron 36:38
Um, yeah, but it was still a… it was still mentioned earlier, I’m pretty sure, that like, they did have some. I think they mentioned like, that she looked on the website and saw some of the animals that they had that like, couldn’t go out into the wild.
GiannaMarie 36:55
Good to know.
Ron 36:56
Um, also like, again, even if it’s not true of, even if it’s not true of the Alaska sanctuary, like, that’s, that’s what sanctuaries are.
GiannaMarie 37:06
Yes. So she, she’s very hopeful that he’ll fit in there. And his perspective lets us know that it feels like home when she’s playing — playing his song for him. Um, so Andi’s squad heads out there, but because they are not — it’s not their sanctuary, they’re not in charge of the expedition anymore. And the Oregon people say that they won’t play the thing for him because it’s going to get in the way of gathering their data. And Iris is like, really dispirited by that and then pulls herself back up again, runs off to a random junkyard at like, some — some tiny stop that the cruise makes and makes herself a hydrophone [laughing] out of junk that she just THROWS into the water. And then when she sees Blue 55 coming, she’s like, I’m coming to get you! And swims out to him. [sigh] What was I going to say? There was also something else that was really, really, like, um, like, cartoonishly crazy. It was that, um, when she and her grandmother get the… get the correct town, her grandma can’t keep up with her. And she’s like, Oh, no, what if we like, get a shuttle or miss a shuttle and she’s like, “I’ll catch up with you. You run to that whale!” [both laughing] And then she literally runs through the town down to the beach, whips out her compass, and then follows it in the right direction until she finds the sanctuary.
Ron 38:41
[laughs]
GiannaMarie 38:43
It was so dramatic. This could be adapted seamlessly into a 90s Disney movie.
Ron 38:51
Oh, this is like a totally unrelated little anecdote. But for anyone who doesn’t remember or doesn’t know, I work at a craft store. And so the other day when I was working, someone came in. And I was at the register closest to the door. So they were like, Hey, I was wondering if you can help me find something. And I’m like, Sure, what are you looking for? And they are like, a compass. And I just stared at them for a minute, because my mind went to like, a compass for finding your way in the wilderness instead of like a compass for drawing.
GiannaMarie 39:22
[shrieks with laughter]
Ron 39:23
And I was like, [laughing] why you looking for a compass here? And then I said, Ohhh! Like a drawing compass. And the woman looked at me for a second and was like, Oh, you thought I meant that kind of compass. And she started laughing. And it was just like, yeah, and then I was like, It’s in the fine art section. Anyways. [laughs]
GiannaMarie 39:43
Now I’m thinking about the compass in Shazam!, that’s like, his most prized possession.
Ron 39:49
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 39:50
And when he — he’s like, I still have it! To his mom, she doesn’t remember it at all, and he’s like, You know, you should use it for emotional guidance, now, actually, I’m all set with my fam now, bye. [laughs]
Ron 40:02
[laughs]
GiannaMarie 40:02
I have to get back to my real family. The shade with that line, it makes my heart soar every time. I love Shazam!, okay?
Ron 40:11
It’s a good movie.
GiannaMarie 40:14
One of my notes for this half is just, “Oh wow, Blue 55 getting real emo, I am sad.” [Ron chuckling] And I don’t even know what it refers to because that’s every single one of his passages until the end.
Ron 40:29
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 40:30
Although I think he might be set up to have a blue whale friend who lives at the sanctuary sometimes -
Ron 40:36
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 40:36
- and she has some communication issues because her family was dead when she was a baby. Um, so Iris is like, fingers crossed that the two of them with their overlapping tones can occasionally say something that makes sense to the other person. And they’ll chill out.
Ron 40:54
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 40:55
And since they’ve been playing his song, he’s been hanging around the sanctuary and they’re hoping to broadcast it to the other sanctuaries down the coast, so he always feels like he has a place to go now, and I’m smiling so big, my cheeks hurt a little. [laughs]
Ron 41:13
[laughs] So something else that was like, really, really, really big in this half to an extent, I didn’t think it was gonna be quite as big as it was? Was, um, was Iris’s grandma’s mental health?
GiannaMarie 41:26
Yeah!
Ron 41:27
Being really addressed and like, talked about between the two of them. And also just Iris thinking about it a lot. And so basically, the day that they go to leave in like, pretty much right after the, like, break in sections for the podcast. Iris shows up to get Grandma, and Grandma’s like, hair is like, perfectly brushed and shiny. And she’s like, all dressed up and like, just full of energy and Iris is like, Holy crap! This is great!
GiannaMarie 42:00
There was a really beautiful line like, like her signs were starting to have color again.
Ron 42:06
Mm-hmm. And they end up talking a little bit about Grandpa, which is a subject that Iris was originally didn’t want to talk about, because she’s like, What if it just makes her more upset? And then she’s like, you know what, she’s thinking about him all the time anyway. It’s not like I’m going to make her start thinking about him. And so it turns out that when she and Grandpa used to go on cruises a lot, one of the best things that she remembers them ever doing is at one stop, they were walking down the street and they started to feel such strong vibrations. They were like, Where’s this coming from? And they followed it to a karaoke bar. And they were like, Oh my God, there’s crazy karaoke going on in here! And because the words are on the screen, when you do karaoke, everybody knows what’s going on, regardless of their ability to hear. So the two of them were just having fun watching. And then they were like, You know what? We’re gonna do a song! And they went up, and they signed the words, and everybody in the bar could see the screen. So they knew what like, the words on the screen were. And they had a great time. And then everyone was like, Oh, my God, you should sign with us the rest of the night! Whenever they were doing karaoke. And so she remembers that as being like, one of her favorite things they ever did on a cruise. Fast forward to one of, as I mentioned in the content warnings, there’s a few scenes where Iris is like, Oh, no, where’s Grandma? Is she okay? So basically, Iris wakes up one night in the middle of the night. And Grandma isn’t in the room with her, and she’s like, Oh, no, where is she? And she knows Grandma’s been going to the casino winning a lot of money. So she goes to the casino and is like, peeking in the door trying to see if her grandma’s in there. And she’s pretty sure she’s not there. And she wanders all around the rest of the boat and is like, What’s going on? And so finally -
GiannaMarie 43:59
Wait, I have something to add from this section. She like, even goes, like, there was someone that she was supposed to call for help if there was a problem. And so -
Ron 44:08
Well, that’s the part I was getting to.
GiannaMarie 44:10
Oh, sorry. Sorry. I have a quote.
Ron 44:12
Yeah. So yeah, when they first arrived, basically the person who like got them all checked in and set up, gave them a card for “If you ever need anything!” Like, call me for help. And so she is going to take the card to the front desk. What’s the quote that you had?
GiannaMarie 44:30
Oh, so she’s waiting to — there’s two people ahead of her and she was like, These people are like — [aggressive] how could anyone have something that they need in the middle of the night? It should be empty out here! They could — what are these people talking about? “They couldn’t possibly have anything as important as a missing grandma!”
Ron 44:46
[laughs] Which is also funny because I like how this, like, keeps coming up too. Because before that, she goes to mail a postcard to her family at the post office, and there’s a big line, and she’s like, Ugh, I only need one stamp, they should just let me skip the line, this is ridiculous!
GiannaMarie 44:53
“That’s probably against the post office rules though.”
Ron 45:09
[laughs]
GiannaMarie 45:09
I thought when you said this keeps coming up, I thought you were gonna say her grandmother running off, because that is something that keeps coming up. And her mother literally emails her like, don’t worry about being in trouble, I know this is all your grandma. It’s exactly the kind of thing she’d do. [laughing]
Ron 45:26
And then she’s like, No, actually, it wasn’t Grandma. This was my idea. Because she doesn’t want Grandma to be in trouble.
GiannaMarie 45:31
[laughs] So much of it was Grandma though!
Ron 45:33
[laughs] It was. Um, and so anyway, Iris is waiting in line for the desk. And then she starts to feel vibrations. So she takes off her shoes. And she’s like, Oh, I know where Grandma is.
GiannaMarie 45:45
[hysterical laughter]
Ron 45:46
And like, just leaves the line right as she gets to the front and the guy’s like, Uh, okay, and she walks over and Yep, there it is, karaoke bar, Grandma’s signing. And she’s just like, Oh my god, this is so amazing. Because her grandma’s just having such a great time. And like, some of the people in the bar have learned, like, she taught everyone how to sign “Hammertime” so that whenever it comes up, they can do that for the song. [laughs]
GiannaMarie 46:14
She’s like, running the karaoke night now.
Ron 46:17
Yeah. [laughs]
GiannaMarie 46:18
Like, she’s not in the audience. She’s standing up on the stage, just like, having the time of her life. [laughs] Oh, there’s also a really adorable part where — another part where Iris is like, Did she leave without me??? But she was just at an origami class. And she stayed later than the origami class was scheduled, because she asked to the teacher to help her make a blue whale for Iris.
Ron 46:45
Which then is in Iris’s pocket when she jumps into the ocean. And so on the plane on the way back, she like, unfolds it to let it dry out and then has her grandma remake it and her grandma was like, I could make you a new one. And she’s like, No, I want this one.
GiannaMarie 47:01
[happy whimper] I’m so glad that she got to like, really build a relationship with her grandma -
Ron 47:06
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 47:06
- because she — it seemed that she had always been closer to her grandpa. Like -
Ron 47:10
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 47:11
- the two of them got to go touch a glacier for grandpa. And then they had — and then, um, I don’t know what the grandma was doing. But Iris was watching — was with Bennie watching some glaciers calve. And the two of them, um, like, met up in the cabin later and did, um. And, like, wrote a poem about it together, which was….
Ron 47:33
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 47:33
And she was like, And Grandma didn’t even say that it wasn’t her thing this time! Like — [more happy whimpers]
Ron 47:42
And so now, this kind of brings me directly into one of my recommendations. So I’m just going to talk about it a little bit right now, like, the second half of this book gave me such big 13 Little Blue Envelopes vibes, that I literally might skip everything I’m reading right now just to go reread 13 Little Blue Envelopes.
GiannaMarie 48:02
[laughs]
Ron 48:03
Because that’s like, one of my favorite books from like, middle-high school years, and I haven’t read it in ages. But like, I mean, an example: So first of all, that story is all about — the main character, her aunt dies of cancer, and leaves her a packet of odd envelopes, telling her basically a scavenger hunt all over Europe, and she has to go backpacking all over Europe with like, just the money her aunt left her and there’s like, rules of what she’s allowed to bring. And basically go to all these places that her aunt went when her aunt was alive, and knew that she was dying, but like, just kind of traveled and didn’t tell the family what was going on. And her aunt was like, her favorite person in the world. And so this whole trip is like, kind of connecting her to that. And so this is a spoiler, but not really the biggest spoiler, so I’m just going to say it, um, in the story, she ends up actually meeting a man who she learns later is her uncle, because in the time that she didn’t know what was going on with her aunt, her aunt actually married him.
GiannaMarie 49:14
[wistful sigh]
Ron 49:14
And so the two of them get to kind of bond through that. And also, there is a sequel and like, I don’t think the sequels necessary, I like it better without the first one, but the uncle does come up more in the sequel, so that’s at least nice. And so like, the vibes of like, going on a really exciting trip and having like, crazy things happen. And also being like, This is the most amazing thing I’ve ever done! And like thinking about family and being connected to people and like all this stuff, like, just, that is entirely what 13 Little Blue Envelopes is. And yes, and also like, having just, towards the end of the trip something major just go horribly wrong. [laughs]
GiannaMarie 50:00
Um, I will say the last couple of things about the grandma that I wanted to say is that by the end of the book, she’s going to live on a cruise ship full time for a year.
Ron 50:12
Mm-hmm, yes.
GiannaMarie 50:12
She’s like -
Ron 50:13
Yes.
GiannaMarie 50:14
- you were right. Like, I hate the nursing home. Like, this is exactly what you wanted me to be like, doing, like, getting out and being with people, like, it’s the same rent as an apartment. Like, it’ll be great.
Ron 50:26
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 50:27
Oh, and there was another part where she, they both turned the locations on their phones off?? [laughing] And she keeps emailing the mother, and Iris is like, but what does she say? And her grandma says, She’ll get over it. [laughs]
Ron 50:49
[laughs]
GiannaMarie 50:49
Um, there was one more grandma thing. Uh…. I don’t know. Oh! The grandma is like, having random men flirt with her [laughs] on the cruise!
Ron 51:07
Yeah, the first night they go out to dinner. At the end of the meal, the waiter asks Iris how to say “beautiful.” And then, like, when they’re leaving he signs to the grandma something along the lines of like, “Have a nice night, beautiful.” [laughs]
GiannaMarie 51:22
And she’s all blushing and smiling!
Ron 51:24
Yeah!
GiannaMarie 51:27
Okay. Oh! The last grandma thing I was going to say, is that, during her like, dark night of the soul, where she’s like, What if we came all this way for nothing and I’m still gonna miss him! She’s like, no, it’s not for nothing! Like, look at how good Grandma is! And we’ve had such a great time together! And like, she’s really snapped out of her depression, and she seems so much happier. Like, And I got to meet Bennie -
Ron 51:50
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 51:50
- like, great things have happened because I was searching for him. Even if I can’t meet up with him, it’s still better than it was.
Ron 51:58
And something that Grandma says towards the end is like, Before, I felt so overwhelmed by everything that I like, didn’t even have room, really, to think about the good things about Grandpa anymore. And now like, I feel like, there’s space for me to like, think about him and miss him, but not be overwhelmed by it. And like, think about the things that I miss and the good times and be like, Yay! And like, one thing that they get to go do is they go to a glacier, which I’ve done, too! I’ve been to a glacier, the glacier I went to, was not quite the same as the one that they went to. Like, they saw some pieces of it that I definitely didn’t see when I went to a glacier. But like, it was — the glacier I went to was still pretty cool. [laughs] And so they go to a glacier, which was something he always wanted to do. And they touch it, because that was specifically what he wanted to do. And they’re just like, This is so great! Like, We’re doing it for him.
GiannaMarie 53:03
Okay, then I think maybe the last piece of this is, Bennie.
Ron 53:10
Yes. So, Bennie.
GiannaMarie 53:11
Bennie was an unexpected delight in the second half.
Ron 53:14
Yes.
GiannaMarie 53:14
I’m so glad that Iris has the ability to make friends.
Ron 53:20
Yeah, like, I like that the second half kind of addresses that… it’s not that Iris can’t be friends with people who don’t know sign. It’s that like, she’s so isolated at her school that it’s overwhelming. Like, it’s not like she can’t… find ways of communication around people not knowing sign. It’s just that if there’s an option, obviously, it’s nice to know people who communicate easily with you. Um, and so also something that the grandma says towards the beginning of this is, the grandma’s like, Well, I’m not like you, Iris. I can’t like, just make friends with people. And Iris is like, What? I can’t make friends with people! What are you talking about? Um, but like thinking about this book as a whole, there’s not only Bennie, but there’s also like, she gets the entire orchestra to make a song for her!
GiannaMarie 54:17
Andi.
Ron 54:18
And like, yeah, and like, she does have people that she sits with at lunch. They just don’t know her very well. And like, I don’t know if that’s a great example. But it’s still like, something, you know. And like, there’s the guy that she befriended at the, like, the, what’s it called? Antique shop, and she has like, a whole relationship with him. And there’s, like -
GiannaMarie 54:44
The junkyard guy.
Ron 54:45
- like, yeah, she does have people, she’s just so isolated at school specifically that she feels like she doesn’t. Um, and so like, um, with Bennie basically, the first day they’re there I think, she sees Bennie across the pool and it’s like, school isn’t out yet. So Bennie is like, the only other kid on the ship basically. And Bennie’s like, Oh, hi! And like, waves across the deck, and Iris waves back and then she and Grandma go to dinner and like, whatever. But then the next day, the first thing Iris decides to do is go to like, a wildlife presentation, and Bennie’s there. And Iris is — Iris walks up to her and hands her a note that’s like, “Hi, I’m Iris. I’m Deaf.” And Bennie hands back a note that’s like, “Hi, I’m Bennie, not Deaf.” [laughs]
GiannaMarie 55:34
Yeah, that’s adorable.
Ron 55:34
And Iris is like, Okay, good. She’s cool. [laughs]
GiannaMarie 55:37
Yeah, she was like, Maybe this doesn’t scare her! And then they talked [Ron chuckling], and Iris is like, Do you like animals? I’m obsessed with whales. And Benny is like, I’m gonna be a shark, like, researcher and Iris is like, nothing scares Bennie. [laughs]
Ron 55:55
[laughs]
GiannaMarie 55:56
There’s literally a part where she like, gets Iris on the the WiFi in the like, the internet café. And she’s like, Are you sure you want to just like, watch me work on the computer? And she’s like, Yeah! I’ll watch shark videos. [both laughing] Like, the two of them are made for each other. I love it so much.
Ron 56:15
Yeah. Also, hopefully like, the two of them will get to see each other some, depending on where Grandma ends up cruise-wise, because it might be the same cruise that Bennie is on.
GiannaMarie 56:26
Yeah!
Ron 56:26
So then it would be like, Hey, I get to go see my friend and my grandma!
GiannaMarie 56:31
I don’t know if they have each other’s numbers, but they definitely are sending letters at the end of the book.
Ron 56:37
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 56:37
And Bennie helped her make her — her improv hydrophone.
Ron 56:43
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 56:44
Oh, it was it was so cute. I love it so much.
Ron 56:49
And Bennie’s mom also teaches Iris a lot of stuff about, like, whale watching and stuff like that.
GiannaMarie 56:56
Yes!
Ron 56:58
There’s one of the first things that um… that…. [flipping pages] So basically, when there’s the presentation, Bennie’s mom is the one who does the presentation on the wildlife, Alaskan wildlife. And Iris is like, When are they going to get to the whales?? And Bennie’s like, It’s the last part of the presentation. Don’t worry.
GiannaMarie 57:19
[wails] This is so cute!
Ron 57:19
And Iris is like, Well, of course it’s the last part, because it’s the most interesting part, and that’s how they get people to stay to the end. [laughs]
GiannaMarie 57:29
[laughs] She’s so absolutely a child at times, but I love it.
Ron 57:33
Yes! And so um, she is like, is fascinated by the bubble net feeding, which she didn’t know anything about before. And then she goes and asks Bennie’s mom, like, How did the whales figure that out?? How do they know how to do the bubble net feeding thing? And her mom’s like, Well, that’s something about science that’s fascinating, is like, we actually don’t know how they figured it out. We know how it works, but we don’t know how they figured that out. And like, that’s a cool thing that we’re still researching and trying to figure out! And Iris is like, [aggressively] You’re supposed to be a scientist!! [laughing] Why don’t you know this?? Like, in her head. Not to — not to Bennie’s mom. [laughs]
GiannaMarie 58:11
She was also like, I don’t — like — like, clearly they’ve decided the one who screams the loudest and who like — but how did they decide these things? Like, did the whales have tryouts for the best bubbler? Like, so cute.
Ron 58:26
[laughs]
GiannaMarie 58:26
Andi actually does tell her at the end like, Hey, did you know that there’s a field for what you’re doing, like working with sound and working with whales?
Ron 58:34
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 58:34
Like, I can’t remember what it was called. But she like writes on the notepad “You’d be good at it!” And then she crosses it out and says, “You are good at it.” [laughing]
Ron 58:43
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 58:44
[laughing] Because, she’s been doing this work FOR them!
Ron 58:47
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 58:48
[happy sigh] What was I going to say? There was a really cute part too, where um, the — she’s gonna, like, call out the whale sightings on the bridge. And she’s like, what time? and Bennie’s mom is like, 5am! And she’s like, Oh…..
Ron 59:07
I think it was like 6am.
GiannaMarie 59:09
No, she says I’ll be there from 5am. And Bennie’s like, We’ll eat it at 6 and meet you after. [continues quoting] “Your grandma can come if you want!” And she’s like, “I’ll tell my grandma…” And when she does her grandma, like, flops dramatically on the other side of the bed [Ron laughing] and she’s like, “Tell those whales I’ll be there at a more reasonable hour.” [laughs]
Ron 59:14
Oh, okay. [laughs]
GiannaMarie 59:30
And Iris is like, “Yeah, I’m not a morning person either. But if that’s when the whales get up, I’ll get up then too!” [laughs]
Ron 59:36
Mmhm.
GiannaMarie 59:36
Just… this book is shining with genuinity. I — it was — this is one of my — my favorite reads of 2020.
Ron 59:49
And 2020 is almost over. So….
GiannaMarie 59:51
I know. We’re gonna — the last podcast episode of 2020, I have already decided, the question is going to be like, what are the best books 2020 that have helped you survive the year? Because -
Ron 1:00:03
Like the best books reading in 2020? Or the best books that came out in 2020?
GiannaMarie 1:00:07
That you have read in 2020. But don’t answer now, answer at the end of 2020. Just think about it.
Ron 1:00:12
I won’t! But I definitely already have some in mind.
GiannaMarie 1:00:15
Oh, yeah. [Ron laughs] Definitely definitely.
Ron 1:00:19
But also, that’s the — the one thing that was nice is that, um — obviously now I’m in grad school, and so I have time for nothing again. But when I was just working almost full time, at my part time job, like, I had so much more time for reading than I’ve had in so long. And so I’m really looking forward to after grad school [GiannaMarie laughing] when I just have a job but not insane studying. And since I’m a librarian and not a teacher, like, a school librarian, but not like, a full on teacher, I will occasionally have to do lesson planning, but I won’t have to do like, teacher-level lesson planning. So I will actually still have some of my own free time. And I’m like, I can read so much!!
GiannaMarie 1:00:31
All right, I think that this about closes out Song for a Whale. We adored it.
Ron 1:01:13
Yes.
GiannaMarie 1:01:15
Okay, what are your recommendations?
Ron 1:01:18
Okay, so obviously 13 Little Blue Envelopes, which is by Maureen Johnson. And I already basically talked about why but just to recap, my notes that I wrote down were: family stuff, traveling — in parentheses, meeting cool people going cool places, trying new things, being amazed! Just, ahhh! I need to reread that book right now! And getting the adventure that you needed, but not necessarily quite the way you wanted. [GiannaMarie laughing] Um, Isabel of the Whales. [GiannaMarie laughs] I wrote “by?” And then I forgot to look it up. So I’m going to look it up right now. Hester Velmans. And that book is about a girl who turns into a whale. And it turns out in that universe that’s like what a mermaid is, is actually a person who turns into a whale and lives with the whales for a while and then returns to life. And so that’s just if you want another middle grade book about whales, that’s the book for you. I would also recommend Axiom’s End— because that is also a book about that’s an adult book. So if you are an adult who enjoys enjoyed this, but would also like to read something that is at a higher reading level, then you could check out Axiom’s End. Also has some more dark things going on from this book.
GiannaMarie 1:02:22
Ooh. Yeah.
Ron 1:02:30
That one also is it is kind of it is definitely also about like, communication, and bonding, despite barriers and like, platonic love, and connection. And then work of Deaf — well. Oh, that actually reminds me of something else I wanted to talk about. We talked about last time that this is a book that is a really good example of like not being Own Voices, but being very well researched and respectfully done. And the author’s note goes into that as well and makes it very clear that there was a ton of research put into this book. And like, a lot of interviews with people who are profoundly deaf and even actually, apparently someone that she spoke to is like, a Deaf radio nerd, which I think is cool. Um, so I just kind of wanted to mention that because we brought it up last time, and I think it’s like, an important note, especially with all the stuff going on.
GiannaMarie 1:03:56
Yes.
Ron 1:03:57
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:03:57
She’s worked as an interpreter for 20 years and is very immersed in Deaf culture.
Ron 1:04:03
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And yeah, so that said, recommendations of a couple Deaf writers that I would recommend. One is Ann Lezotte, who we’ve read a book by on this podcast, and -
GiannaMarie 1:04:21
She’s got a new one coming out!
Ron 1:04:24
Cool. Um, so the book we read on this podcast is a novel inverse, called T4, that is about World War Two, and horrifying ableist things. So.
GiannaMarie 1:04:42
It’s about surviving the Third Reich from within.
Ron 1:04:46
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:04:48
She has a book coming out this year called Show Me A Sign. “A vivid depiction of Deaf community along and along with an exciting plot and beautiful prose make this a must read.”
Ron 1:05:02
Mm-hmm. And then another Deaf poet that I would recommend is Peter Cook, who does live performances and has been kind of traveling doing performances with a hearing partner, Kenny Lerner, and the two of them, do Deaf poetry performances that are obviously accessible to Deaf people, but also inclusive of hearing people and getting hearing people into the Deaf poetry community and like, understanding kind of what it is. And you can find clips of like, what they do online. And it’s super cool, because like, for example, something this book mentions is that Deaf applause is to kind of wave your hands over your head kind of like jazz hands. So that you can see it. Where in these performances, they will kind of merge Deaf applause and hearing applause so that everyone in the audience if they’re applauding, they clap over their head, so that Peter Cook can see it, but Kenny Lerner can hear it.
GiannaMarie 1:06:15
[little laugh]
Ron 1:06:16
And so, basically, what they do is like, at the very beginning, Kenny Lerner will talk a lot to the audience, as Peter Cook signs, and act more as like, a traditional interpreter. But as you get more and more into their performance, basically, you start to pick things up and get a sense of what’s going on from Peter Cook’s poetry, which he does sign in the poetry but also like, pantomime, to basically do like, almost like, the Deaf equivalent of spoken word like, performative poetry.
GiannaMarie 1:06:49
Mm!
Ron 1:06:50
And so, at the beginning of a poem, Kenny Lerner might tell you like, this sign means this and this sign means this, but then throughout the rest of the poem, he pretty much doesn’t talk anymore. And you just follow what’s going on, because you get a sense of what’s going on. And Peter Cook is so emotive and everything, which is a huge part of sign is like, showing emotion to give context. And it’s just like, really, really cool. How like, even as the performance, like, basically only gives hearing people enough to go on so that they can follow it. And I think that’s cool, because it’s like, bringing people in, but also not babying them and also like, spreading awareness, and also just really good poetry.
GiannaMarie 1:07:40
There was a really beautiful, private moment with Blue 55 where she, like, tapped a poem on his body. [laughing]
Ron 1:07:51
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 1:07:51
She was like, this one’s just for us, babe. [Ron laughing] Never gonna write it down! Um, do you have any more or is it my turn?
Ron 1:08:01
No, that was my last one. But I would definitely say like, look up Peter Cook online.
GiannaMarie 1:08:09
Okay, mine are Beluga Days: Tracking the Endangered White Whale by Nancy Lord, which is a like, let me think — it’s nonfiction, but it’s like, also a little bit of a memoir about like, the decline in Beluga populations in Alaska and Canada. And this woman who goes on this, like, she starts — when she starts to realize this, she starts to go to all of these community meetings about it and realizes like, how important the beluga whales are to all of the Inuit communities around her and what the governments have been doing that kind of shafts them, the environment, and the belugas. So this was the book that kind of — like, I already loved belugas, but it got me like, super into like, the engagement of the whale hunt to indigenous communities, um, which — I really really love this book. And more on the Deaf side is You’re Welcome, Universe by Whitney Gardner, which is a YA book that I adore that I read last year, which is about a brown girl with two moms who and it’s all Deaf. So it’s very clearly like, an alternate version of like the case of the two Deaf lesbians who chose the who chose a Deaf sperm donor so they would have a higher chance of having a Deaf child. Um, and she has just — she was going to Deaf school and she’s just gotten kicked out of Deaf school for, [laughing], um, putting up graffiti over a slur about her best friend on school property. She is a, like, very talented street artist, and her story is about — is like, a platonic love story about, um, this friendship that she, she develops with a girl that she meets in mainstream school that, um, she, like, at first is very frustrated, like, Oh my god, she’s using baby signs, like, why does she even care about this?? But then the two of them, like, really fall in together and she’s like, she’s — she’s [laughing] doing these, um, like murals all over the place. And she’s, she is engaged with a like, she’s engaged in a mural war, a street art war, against another street artist, who is like her nemesis. And she’s like, I don’t even care who this person is. I just need one up their art at every opportunity! [laughs] So. It’s, it’s a really, really great book. I — I’ve been meaning to reread it for about a year. It’s really good. I enjoy it very much. Those are my — my big recommendations for this book. It was such a delight. I can’t think of anything else. Yeah, I can’t. Oh, oh, wait, wait. One — one, like happy children’s thing with sign, um, is there’s a character in The Dragon Prince that speaks ASL. And they call it something different. Like, they call it like her regional sign language in the show. But like, they actually changed like, the motion capture rate, um, so it’s easier for people who actually speaks sign to understand what she’s saying. And she has an interpreter, and she’s actually a general, and she’s a lesbian. [laughing] And she’s like, one of my favorite characters. It’s fantastic. In The Dragon Prince. On Netflix.
Ron 1:12:08
Okay, so it is like, the last 5–10 minutes of the podcast, but um, this is a new recording, because last time, uh, I forget what exactly went wrong. But basically, I ended up losing my recording.
GiannaMarie 1:12:26
Mm-hmm.
Ron 1:12:27
I don’t remember why. But anyway, so we’re just re-recording the end. And so yeah, so we were in recommendations. And I was like, Oh, what’s that Netflix movie I watched one time? And now I know, because it’s later and I had time to look it up. It’s called Feel the Beat. And that movie, a disclaimer, I will say is, it’s not like, a spectacular movie. It just does a lot of cool things with like, various, like, representation and like, making tropes kind of new. It’s not like, oh, wow, this movie is such a great story or something like that. Anyway, I’m still recommending it. It’s about basically, a girl who kind of is a jerk, ruins her dance career by being a jerk. Um, and so she can’t dance in New York anymore, because no one will take her. So she becomes a coach of a kids dance team? Because she finds out that one of the things is a “teacher feature” in the big dance competition where she could perform in front of one of the one, like, the only person who would potentially ever hire her. She could get in front of him and perform and if he’s impressed, he’ll hire her regardless of her bad reputation. [laughs] And so, throughout this, she learns to actually evaluate the children that she’s coaching, instead of being a jerk. Um, and the group that she’s coaching one of the girls on the team is Deaf and is actually played by a like, real Deaf girl [laughing], who is a YouTuber, I’m pretty sure? And like, also is a dancer, or at least does some dance on her YouTube channel. And so the cool thing in that movie is like, everyone on the dance team signs, so like, if everyone’s having a conversation, even if it doesn’t directly involve the girl who’s Deaf, they will, like, sign what they’re saying so that she knows what’s going on. Which is cool.
GiannaMarie 1:14:44
That is definitely the way it should be.
Ron 1:14:46
Mm-hmm. The one thing I will say is that it doesn’t really film — it doesn’t really film the sign in a way that people who know ASL could watch the show and know what’s being said without the captions, which is kind of annoying. [GiannaMarie sighs] Cuz I — I believe that that should be because it’s kind of the same thing as like — like the signs they’re using is real. So it’s not quite as bad as if someone’s speaking Spanish and saying nonsense because they figure people watching the movie wouldn’t know. But it’s still kind of that type of thing.
GiannaMarie 1:15:18
Oh, right. Um, last time, I recommended the Seafire series by Natalie C. Parker. Which I can’t remember why I did that. Oh!
Ron 1:15:29
Um, well, it was because I was talking about like, my support, I was talking about how the group and the dance troupe, and then you were like -
GiannaMarie 1:15:37
Yes yes yes yes! Yeah, I remember now. Um, there’s, like, maybe 50 girls on this ship, that there they are pirate girls. And there’s like, 5 who are command crew. And one of the command crew is — she’s not able to speak verbally, but she can hear. So she uses sign and, and she’s gay. And like, her girlfriend signs, and all the command crew signs, and all of the rest of the, like, people on the ship sign just so they could talk to her. Like, they all understand sign and they sign for her. And like, you see a little bit of where she came from. And they all sign for her too.
Ron 1:16:17
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 1:16:17
Like, it is a wonderful thing in their dystopia. I love those books very much, okay. And I think that that brings us to the fact that this was cut into like, five pieces. This recording is very us. Um, I’ll say, because now we are, we are technically wrapping up the season -
Ron 1:16:40
This recording wasn’t cut into five pieces. It was the first half that got cut into like three pieces.
GiannaMarie 1:16:45
I knowww.
Ron 1:16:47
And then this one was almost good. And then it was a mess instead.
GiannaMarie 1:16:50
That’s why I was saying it’s very us. [Ron laughs]
Ron 1:16:54
Um, but yeah, so I think we did mention a tiny bit at the beginning of the recording, but honestly, I don’t remember that this is the end of Season 1. This is Episode 60. Next time you hear us, it will be Episode 1 of Season 2! And we’re changing up our format a bit. Um, so we’re going to be doing just about two, um, two recently published a books for every old, like, not recently published book. Though sometimes we are tossing in a lot of — it seems like we have a kind of good amount of books that are like, in between new and old where we’re like, I don’t know what this is!
GiannaMarie 1:17:47
They’re toddlers.
Ron 1:17:48
Let’s just read it! [laughing] Um, and we’re also going to be posting less often, at least for a while. So that -
GiannaMarie 1:17:58
Probably until like Christmassy time.
Ron 1:18:00
Yeah. So that there’s time to, A) do transcripts, and B) live our lives.
GiannaMarie 1:18:08
Live YOUR grad school life!
Ron 1:18:10
Yeah. And so, it — we will be posting every other week, it’ll still be Mondays.
GiannaMarie 1:18:19
Hopefully, we can come back to a weekly format when Ron’s schedule is better, because this year Ron’s schedule is hell on earth? I believe?
Ron 1:18:27
Yes.
GiannaMarie 1:18:27
I believe that’s the technical term.
Ron 1:18:28
I’m taking for grad classes. And I — I would recommend no one ever does that unless you have a completely empty schedule aside from grad school.
GiannaMarie 1:18:39
Ron does not.
Ron 1:18:41
I do not.
GiannaMarie 1:18:43
Ron gotta pay the bills.
Ron 1:18:46
I do. And, do a podcast.
GiannaMarie 1:18:49
And that is why we are accommodating and doing less of the podcast for right now.
Ron 1:18:54
Yep.
GiannaMarie 1:18:56
But yeah, that is that is the Season 1. So we will be coming back at you with 2:1 new releases to old releases.
Ron 1:19:07
We shall.
GiannaMarie 1:19:08
Not quite as often as usual. But sometimes you got to take these things in life and roll with them. So we’ll see you in two weeks from now.
Ron 1:19:22
Yes.
GiannaMarie 1:19:23
Maybe more. I can’t remember. I need a calendar in front of me. [laughing]
Ron 1:19:29
You — I gave you all the dates?? So I don’t know what else to do! [laughing]
GiannaMarie 1:19:34
My computer is real messed up, calm down. [laughing] I’ve — I’ve had a bit of a computer crisis. Okay. I think that’s all of the information we need to impart. So, goodbye Season 1 friends.
Ron 1:19:50
And now Annaliese has the ultimate pressure of wrapping up this season and picking the song that ends it all.
Annaliese 1:19:58
Hello, everyone! Thank you for listening to this week’s episode of Something Old, Something Debut, I hope you enjoyed it. If you’d like to contact us on social media our Tumblr is @SomethingOldSomethingDebut, our Instagram is @some_old_some_debut and our Twitter is @debutold. The song that I would like to recommend to you guys this week is “Out on the Road” by Norah Jones. I chose that song for several reasons. One, because it is a travel type themed song. And I think that would work perfectly for a — all of the transit that is has to do in Song for a Whale. And the — did I say 1 or A? [laughing] Oh well. Secondly, it is a it is a metaphor for us traveling into our second season. It also gives me very fall vibes. I put it in my personal fall 2020 playlist. And it is — as I am recording this, October 1. So happy Halloween season. [laughing] And we are all very excited for Season 2. So I hope you guys are as well. And as usual, that song, “Out on the Road” by Norah Jones, will be on our music reccs playlist on Spotify, which you can find by going to our Twitter and clicking the link in our bio. Also, we now have transcripts available if you would like to read a transcription of this or any episode they will be available on Medium which you can also find by clicking the link in any of our social media bios. That’s it for this week. Stay safe and healthy. And we’ll see you in two weeks for a new episode. Bye!
