Something Old, Something Debut Transcript: Winterkeep by Kristin Cashore
[GUITAR INTRO]
[PAGES FLIPPING]
SPEAKERS
GiannaMarie, Annaliese, Ron, Victoria
Ron 00:11
Hello, welcome to Something Old, Something Debut, the podcast where we alternate new books and old books we think you should know about. I’m Ron, and I use he and they pronouns.
GiannaMarie 00:21
And I’m GiannaMarie, and I use she/her pronouns. And today, after a very long week, we are going to be talking about Kristin Cashore’s Winterkeep.
Ron 00:32
But as usual, first, we have other stuff. And before we do our questions, there’s just two things I want to talk about. One, you probably noticed the last episode, that we have a new intro. And we didn’t say anything about it last episode, because when we recorded last episode, it wasn’t created yet. [laughing] So we didn’t know for sure that it was gonna be on there. Um, but yeah, it’s me playing the guitar. That’s all — that’s about it. The other thing that I realized I should probably say, on the podcast, is that over our hiatus, I started testosterone. So. The reason this is relevant to the podcast is, I’m about three months on T now. So any day, my voice is going to start getting deeper.
GiannaMarie 01:29
I already told you your voice is a little bit deeper than it was.
Ron 01:33
It’s not. [laughing]
GiannaMarie 01:35
But it is!
Ron 01:37
But, um, so if you’re just like, what’s up with Ron? Like, why is it going, like — [affected deep voice] “Hi I’m Ron”, all of a sudden, that’s why.
GiannaMarie 01:48
Ron’s just really excited to be on T.
Ron 01:52
I’m so excited to have acne. It’s great.
GiannaMarie 01:55
I’m sorry, did you or did you not change your Twitter name the day that you got prescribed testosterone to “Ron, testosterone taker?” With an exclamation point? [laughing]
Ron 02:05
I did. No, I’m obviously — any — I’m pretty sure any trans person who goes on HRT is excited about it. If they aren’t, then maybe like, maybe they’re not a trans person who needs HRT. Um, but -
GiannaMarie 02:21
I was implying that the one that you were bringing this up was not because you were like, I wonder if listeners are going to worry if I have a cold! And more just like, Ooh, it’s an opportunity to be excited about T!
Ron 02:34
[laughing] No, I was more just thinking like, eventually. It’ll be interesting if someone like, comes to the podcast. And hears an episode like, a few months from now. And then they’re like, oh, I’ll scroll back to earlier episodes! [laughing] And they go back to one of our first episodes, and my voice is completely different. And they’re like, Okay, wait, no, it says it’s the same person, so it must be. So this is officially the part of the podcast — if you listen to this episode, specifically — this episode is the answer to why the voice is different. [laughing]
GiannaMarie 03:13
We’ll keep an eye on it.
Ron 03:15
[big laughter]
GiannaMarie 03:16
Alright, so my question for this week, I’ve been percolating for a while. Um, in one part of the Royal Continent that we’re talking about, they have people called Gracelings, who have a really strange, kind of, um, very exaggerated skill. Um, and some of these are like, crazy, like mind reading, but some of them are like, swimming, or — let me think of a really weird example. I think one of them was eating a cake the size of a barrel without getting indigestion? So what is a really weird thing that you are better at than everyone else that you know? Like, because I would assume that you and I would not have epic Graces that would be worth like, a book about, it would be something really dumb. [laughing]
Ron 04:12
So -
GiannaMarie 04:13
Oh, you’re prepared! I’m excited.
Ron 04:15
This was also my question. And I was like, I bet GiannaMarie is going to ask this question.
GiannaMarie 04:20
[screeching laughter]
Ron 04:23
But the way that I was going to phrase it is, if like you found out you’d had a Grace all along, what would you realize that it was? [laughing]
GiannaMarie 04:35
Hmmm.
Ron 04:36
Um, but for mine, what I was thinking is, like, minor feats of engineering. And by this, I mean, like, when you have an issue, like your zipper pull comes off, and it’s like, what do I replace it with? Or like, you can’t get something to stand upright and all you have are random household objects around you. Or you’re like, I want to make this thing, but I have no idea how to make it! So instead of looking up how to make it, I’m just gonna do it!
GiannaMarie 05:08
You do that a lot.
Ron 05:09
That would absolutely be me. That is me. That is my grace.
GiannaMarie 05:13
Is it small scale MacGyver-ing?
Ron 05:18
Yes.
GiannaMarie 05:20
Low stakes MacGyvering. No deaths.
Ron 05:22
[laughing]
GiannaMarie 05:25
That kind of makes mine seem awful In comparison, because the thing that I’m better at than anyone else I know, is making microwave popcorn.
Ron 05:34
Okay, but that’s a very valuable skill. [GiannaMarie laughing] And yours is like, more likely to get you friends. [disbelieving GiannaMarie laugh] Because my skill is like, if something breaks and I’m like, Oh, yeah, I could fix it with like, your shoelace, a hanger, and a little bit of tape. Everyone just stares at me like, why would you do that? And it’s like, cuz it would work! Duh. But like, if you’re like, Hey, I can make the best microwave popcorn, everyone’s like, aw, yeah, let’s watch a movie!
GiannaMarie 06:04
Then why didn’t I make friends with you with this technique?
Ron 06:08
Well, I don’t really like popcorn.
GiannaMarie 06:09
Every time I’ve ever gone someplace in college and I’ve made microwave popcorn perfectly, everyone has been like, Oh my god, that smells really good, but also it smells a lot. Like, open a window or something. [laughing]
Ron 06:21
What the hell? That’s a weird reaction. I just don’t really like popcorn that much. I have to be like, in The Mood for popcorn.
GiannaMarie 06:28
I know. You need your movie mood for popcorn. Yeah, I’m just, I’m, I’m a microwave popcorn savant. I don’t know if I would look back on my life and say, Oh, that’s what I was Graced with all along, but like, maybe? [both laughing] Okay, so, how to explain. This book is…technically part of a series, but also it stands on its own quite well.
Ron 07:01
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 07:01
Which is true of…all? Of Kristin’s books?
Ron 07:06
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 07:08
Um, what are we doing? Are we explaining first? Or am I reading the back of the book first?
Ron 07:15
I mean, just to expand on what you just said, if people are like, well, how would that be possible? It’s because every single book is focused on someone or something different, so the first three books —
GiannaMarie 07:28
They’re each a self-contained story.
Ron 07:30
Yeah. The first three books are each about different individual people.
GiannaMarie 07:36
And then not an overarching trilogy —
Ron 07:38
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 07:39
Like they’re called a yeah, trilogy, but they’re just technically like, connected loosely in the same world.
Ron 07:45
Yeah, it’s more like, spinoffs, almost, like that kind of vibe. Um, and the second one, even, especially like, the second, the character in the second one, who’s the main character, barely shows up in any of the other books.
GiannaMarie 08:02
I wept when she showed up in Bitterblue and I waited eagerly for any mention of her in Winterkeep. [Ron laughing] She is my heart.
Ron 08:11
Winterkeep is a little different than the first three, because Winterkeep isn’t about one specific person, whereas the first three are, but like, they’re all very, like self contained stories that just happened to take place in the same universe and within a close enough period of time that like, the characters’ lives overlap.
GiannaMarie 08:37
Yes.
Ron 08:38
But like, not really in a continuous, like, straightforward, like, this is one year, this is the next year, this is the next year, or anything like that.
GiannaMarie 08:49
I think one of the reasons why it’s such a unique structure is that there literally is no overarching plot. Like, normally when you say trilogy, it’s like, oh, this is the buildup, this is the middle, this is the epic conclusion. But each of them is very different. And has that scale, like, almost as a standalone.
Ron 09:11
The reading experience is definitely enhanced if you have read all the books, because there’s just subtext that you won’t understand unless you’ve read the books.
GiannaMarie 09:22
That is definitely true, although —
Ron 09:24
But you — if you haven’t read them all, you’re not going to be like, completely confused.
GiannaMarie 09:29
I think Ron actually enjoyed this book more than I did. Which, if you listen to the way that I [laughing] spoke about this book for the past few months is insane. But I kind of I just expected this book to break me into pieces and put me back together and instead I just kind of felt a quiet peace the entire time, which was a different experience? I re- I reread the entire book before we — I read it twice in six days. Not six days. It was Tuesday. Five days? I read it twice in five days because I was like, thinking about it so much, I was like, maybe I just got the wrong impression, because everyone loves it on Twitter, like, maybe I just really messed up somehow. And I read it again. And I feel the exact same way, which is just like, a deep sense of peace and pride for Bitterblue. [both laughing]
Ron 10:23
Um, this book, also for reference, is like 500 pages.
GiannaMarie 10:27
[in laughter] This was also my first week of classes. I was very busy prioritizing Winterkeep over my classes.
Ron 10:41
I don’t have to deal with classes yet.
GiannaMarie 10:43
Um, okay. Don’t rub it in. Okay —
Ron 10:47
I’m enjoying. It’s also like, stressful though. Because like, so many other schools have already come back. So other people are talking about school and I’m just like, stressed out because I’m like, I know it’s coming. And I’m like, why couldn’t my last week just remain peaceful -
GiannaMarie 11:01
Aww.
Ron 11:01
— instead of watching everyone else go back. But it’s also not that bad. I’m glad that I’m not back yet. So.
GiannaMarie 11:09
Okay, I’m gonna read the um, the cover copy and then we’re going to get into trigger warnings.
Ron 11:14
Yes.
GiannaMarie 11:16
Okay. “For the past five years, Bitterblue has reigned queen of-” Okay, first, first, I need to have a talk. And it is about the pronunciation of Bitterblue’s kingdom. [emotional] So I saw Kristin Cashore give a talk about WINTERKEEP, and she says Mon-SEE. Which, in retrospect, makes much more sense, considering the location of the kingdom is between the mountains and the sea. But I have been calling it Mon-see-UH since…2011. And I just, I have no idea what to do. [laughing] Because — I want to be right, I always wanna be right. [Ron laughing] But also, I think Mon-see-UH sounds cooler than Mon-SEE. [laughing] Do you know what, I think I’m gonna say Mon-see-UH. I know it’s wrong, but I think we should spice it up, because everyone else is saying Mon-SEE.
Ron 12:22
[laughing loudly] Okay.
GiannaMarie 12:28
When I started to audiate “Mon-SEE” in my head, it felt like a piece of my soul had fallen away, so I’m gonna stick with my bad pronunciation. “For the past five years, Bitterblue has rein- has reigned as queen of Monsea, heroically rebuilding her nation after her father’s horrific rule. After learning about the land of Torla in the east, she sends envoys to the closest nation there — Winterkeep, a place where telepathic foxes bond with humans and people fly across the sky in wondrous airships. But when the envoys never return, having drowned under suspicious circumstances, Bitterblue sets off for Winterkeep herself, along with her spy Hava and her trusted colleague Giddon. On the way tragedy strikes again, a tragedy with devastating political and personal ramifications. Meanwhile, in Winterkeep, Lovisa Kavenda waits and watches, a fire inside her that is always hungry. The teenage daughter of two powerful politicians, she is the key to unlocking everything, but only if she’s willing to transcend the person she’s been all her life.” I’m just like, cradling the book now. Okay.
Ron 13:41
Okay, so content warnings. So I would say suicidal ideation comes up a lot, as well as just in general, like, poor mental health, and people being concerned about others. And like, knowing that that person is like, imagining or thinking about, like, suicide. So there’s also, like, that aspect of like, being concerned about another person. Um, and yeah, just like depression and anxiety in general. Um, murder, there’s like, one on-page murder. And murder also comes up just like, a lot. There’s, I would say, kind of torture, specifically in the form of starvation, and like dehydration, but also in the form of like, humiliation. In like the way that this person is treated while they’re being forcibly starved out.
GiannaMarie 14:55
I’m gonna say it’s food deprivation and water deprivation. And not active starvation.
Ron 15:03
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 15:04
To clarify, it was uncomfortable to read for me. Um, I also want to point out solitary confinement.
Ron 15:12
Yeah. Um, that was just down further when I was gonna link that one in with abduction, slash kidnapping… both the quality of being like, confined and isolated and having been abducted, but also like, in addition to that, there are multiple scenes of people being abducted. Um —
GiannaMarie 15:42
There are two separate people who have been abducted, starved, and contained in isolation in this book.
Ron 15:53
Yes. Um, also like… yeah. Anyway, um… so along with this, there’s also like, missing persons, because there’s other characters who are concerned about, like, the people who were abducted, and what could have happened to them. And like the fears that go along with that when you don’t know that someone was abducted, and you think they also could have been killed or like, who knows what could have happened to them? There is one scene of a kind of attempted sexual assault, a little bit of non consensual touching in that scene. It’s a little complicated scene. But it definitely has themes of like, just sexual things without consent.
GiannaMarie 16:46
Dubious consent. There’s sexual exploitation.
Ron 16:49
Yeah, I was also getting to that one.
GiannaMarie 16:52
I’m sorry, I’m taking your job away.
Ron 16:54
[laughs] Um, there’s… yeah, so there’s like, a lot of sexual exploitation that happens. Sometimes by a point of view character. There’s also just in general, a lot of like, sexual content. So for people who are, like, sex averse, there’s never an on-page, like, sex scene. But there’s always — there are multiple scenes of people like, thinking or talking about sex. And, like, quite a few scenes of like, lead up into sex.
GiannaMarie 17:28
I was astonished because all the other books fade to black when there’s a sex scene. And I was just like, Whoa! [laughs] What is going on in this book?
Ron 17:41
Well, the thing is, the original series was written for our age group when we were younger. And this is being written for ideally, the same people who would have read the first books. So now this is more like, in the a range of like, new adults, which is something that we’ll talk about later, because I think it’s got some interesting themes because of that, that the other books don’t necessarily have as much.
GiannaMarie 18:09
Ooh my.
Ron 18:10
Um, there’s also issues of like, not just sexual exploitation of people who are at the same level, but there’s also issues of like, class and, like, rank and power dynamics within a sexual exploitation situation. So there’s that. Um, there’s some themes of discrimination not based on any, like, real world attributes. It’s based on like, there’s a lot of discrimination against the people who have a Grace. Um, so that comes up. Where…
GiannaMarie 19:01
Do you have, like, um, bullying and social isolation?
Ron 19:09
No, but I do have parental abuse.
GiannaMarie 19:12
Well, that’s the other genre of content warnings we need to get into because—
Ron 19:17
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 19:18
— holy hell there are a lot.
Ron 19:21
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 19:22
[sighs]
Ron 19:26
Also, with the mental health, something I forgot, because I put it at the bottom of my list instead of up with all the other mental health stuff: lots of self-hate, and there’s like, some very, very, very mild self harm that probably a lot of people wouldn’t think is self harm. But like, there’s specifically a scene where, like, a character just like — or, like a few scenes where characters just, like, are so motivated by other things that they stopped taking care of their bodies. And it’s like, bad things happen to their bodies because their bodies are out in the world in the environment, and they’re not taking care of them basically, because they’ve stopped caring about themselves —
GiannaMarie 20:10
Yes.
Ron 20:10
— as much as they care about whatever else they’re worried about.
GiannaMarie 20:13
Um, there’s — before we get into parental abuse, there’s… um, just some drowning. There’s, like, a scene of — of drowning. There, um, are several scenes of a house fire. There — there’s a choking on… on page, there are several graphic injuries. Um, I’m trying to think if I’ve missed anything else.
Ron 20:43
I think one of the big things in this book is also that one of literally, like, one of the guiding themes of this book is the industrialization of warfare. So that’s like a big one.
GiannaMarie 21:00
Yeah. Oh, yes, so marine mammals are being harmed and killed.
Ron 21:06
Yes, also another one that I had was um, like, themes of like, pollution. And, like, just society being mean to the earth and it resulting in animals being unsafe.
GiannaMarie 21:23
So into the parental abuse?
Ron 21:26
Yeah. So… parental abuse, like, neglect…
GiannaMarie 21:36
Imprisonment.
Ron 21:37
Yeah. I’m trying to think of… I never came up with exactly how to say, basically the dynamic of not just the abuser, but also the people who are abusive by enabling the abuser —
GiannaMarie 21:51
That’s enabling, gaslighting.
Ron 21:54
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 21:55
There’s on-page hitting, verbal, emotional abuse. Lovisa’s mother, like, grabs her by the hair at one point.
Ron 22:11
Also, I would specify that it’s not just this main character who’s, like, a teenager, there’s also, like, smaller children.
GiannaMarie 22:18
They control her behavior by threatening her brothers who are five, seven, and nine. The five year old is pictured at one point, like being forced to stand barefoot in a cold entryway. So he’ll get — he’ll be in pain every time someone opens a door. The parents are very awful people.
Ron 22:47
And so the last one, I think, the last one I have written down, I didn’t even know what to call it. I will say it happens on page 391. And honestly, from my perspective, that was the most disturbing part of the book, which is basically the mother trying to find a way to make herself seem like a victim, and seem like someone other people would want to help.
GiannaMarie 23:15
[exhales angrily]
Ron 23:16
And she imitates how her own children act when she knows that she has mistreated them. And it’s, like, horrifying. it’s, I would say definitely, for me, it was the, like… that scene and then also some other stuff that happens immediately after it was definitely like, the most traumatic part of the book. Like….
GiannaMarie 23:43
It’s particularly noteworthy to me, the fact that she herself was an abused child, this character, the mother, and she doesn’t even think to draw on the feelings that that gave her, because she’s so used to being powerful and hurting other people now, so she has to go, like, perform these mental gymnastics to reach a point where she’s like, Oh, I can make a face that looks like I’ve been upset. All right. That was a lot.
Ron 24:22
I will say. This book is much much, much, much lighter than the last book we read.
GiannaMarie 24:27
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Ron 24:28
And this book also is, um, I think it’s actually been a little bit… well, I guess the last book we read — I’m looking up at my shelf — the last book we read that I think had a lot of lighter stuff like this wasn’t that long ago. It was Song for a Whale.
GiannaMarie 24:47
It was a long time ago in like, weeks.
Ron 24:51
Yeah. But like, this book is one that is like, has kind of the fun, very common I think, in YA thing of like, we’re just — I guess, in books, where like, the characters are just fun and quippy and like, say stupid things to each other throughout the book. So like, it’s not like — like, our last book had very, very few like, jokes. At all.
GiannaMarie 25:20
I don’t know that there was one.
Ron 25:25
I think there was — I — well, I think there were some, like, slightly amusing, like, Wow, how could you be like this? Like, why would you say that?
GiannaMarie 25:33
Sometimes I laughed when bad things would happen to the main character.
Ron 25:37
Yeah, like, I’m just like glancing back at my notes. [talking to self] Did I write down…?
GiannaMarie 25:44
There’s a lot of, um, adorable banter in —
Ron 25:46
Oh, you know what? In the last book, something that I thought was funny was what two of the like, rich awful colonizers considered a romantic, that, that was pretty funny. Um, but this, this book has a lot of, like, banter and like, stuff to lighten the mood.
GiannaMarie 26:04
There are two animal POV’s. And while sometimes those are frightening, a lot of the time they’re like, Oh, this person has such a different perspective on life. It’s very cute.
Ron 26:16
I thought of a couple more content warnings, though. Um, just —
GiannaMarie 26:22
[laughing] I know exactly what you’re thinking of.
Ron 26:26
I don’t know if — so, um, I’d say just, like, fear of elements. Like, literally like —
GiannaMarie 26:37
Exposure?
Ron 26:37
Yeah, exposure.
GiannaMarie 26:39
There’s frostbite.
Ron 26:41
Frostbite, yeah. Also, like, there’s a really, really huge winter storm at one point, which — kind of a spoiler — nobody gets hurt or anything in that storm. But like, they are definitely like, a little concerned about it and, like, holeing up for the storm and things have to, like, pause because of how big the storm is. But also another thing we did not mention, which we should definitely mention, is grief.
GiannaMarie 27:11
All of Kristin’s books are — except for Graceling— are very focused on grief.
Ron 27:15
Yes.
GiannaMarie 27:15
But this was, um, I guess, is no exception at all. It was also very focused on grief.
Ron 27:21
Yeah. Um, but, and — Okay, so now ends the point where we are in spoiler free territory, but also this is a little important note to the grief part of the book. Something that really lightens the grief part of the book is — Spoiler! Stop listening right now, if you want to read this book without spoilers, or without the spoilers we’ve already done. But okay. Something that lightens the grief in the book is that although everyone is really upset, and we feel really bad for them about this person, they’re grieving, the person they’re grieving isn’t actually dead. So then later on, there is grief in other —
GiannaMarie 28:03
I thought you were talking about Lovisa’s grief, because I could barely even connect with Giddon and all of his tears, because I was just like, Man, pull yourself together and go find her!
Ron 28:16
[laughs] So like at the beginning of this book, basically, they’re heading out to like, investigate this mystery, and Bitterblue gets thrown overboard and then abducted at sea. And so they think she fell off the boat — she’s dead, because who would abduct someone at sea, especially when they saw no boats.
GiannaMarie 28:40
Well yes they did, there was actually an argument later in the book where Lovisa’s mom is like, [mimicking] Why didn’t you just rescue her like any normal person? Then you would be the hero who saves the queen of Monsea’s life?
Ron 28:55
[laughing] Yes!
GiannaMarie 28:55
[continue to mimic] Well, they would have been in our debt! Now we have this nightmare situation on our hands! [normal voice] and he’s like, But we can ransom her! And she’s like, But we’re not going to be able to because we’re gonna get killed! It was the stupidest possible thing he could have done.
Ron 29:15
Yes, um, but — so at the beginning of the book, specifically, Giddon, who is a character from the past books —
GiannaMarie 29:24
I loved him so much in those books, Ron —
Ron 29:28
Yes.
GiannaMarie 29:28
I saw E.K. Johnston reading the #GracelingReadalong and she was like, Maybe after I’ve read Winterkeep I have just thought of Giddon too harshly in my memory. Maybe he’s not actually as bad as he was. But no, he’s awful in Graceling. But then, eight years pass between Graceling and Bitterblue, and he’s like, a grown up man who does good things by then. And now he’s like, a point-of-view character.
Ron 29:58
Well I also, like — there’s even a scene in this book where he sees, like, some kids, some like, rich asshole kids, and he’s like, Ah, and then he’s like, I shouldn’t be like that. I used to be them. Okay. Okay. [laughs]
GiannaMarie 30:11
There’s a couple of scenes where he’s like, I don’t — I don’t like situations where I could make bad decisions. Like, I don’t like all of the people that I could be, I used to be a bad person. Because he objectively was a bad person.
Ron 30:26
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 30:27
Um, but also, he was a teenager when he was a bad person. And then he grew up into a very excellent adult, and now he’s 31. And he’s a very gentle, loving man. [laughs]
Ron 30:39
Um, yeah, but what I was gonna say, so that -
GiannaMarie 30:44
One of his defining features in this book is carrying other human beings just because he can, and it will be slightly easier for them.
Ron 30:53
Yes.
GiannaMarie 30:53
He carries, like, four people in this book — five people — just because!
Ron 31:00
[laughs] I like that -
GiannaMarie 31:01
Like one time, he was one a rescue mission, and everyone looks at him. And he’s like, Oh, because the person needs to be carried. It’s me. It’s good I’m big! [laughs]
Ron 31:10
I like that, um, there’s one point- I don’t know if I wrote it down in my notes. And if I did, I don’t know if I can find where I wrote it down in my notes. But there’s one point that’s so funny to me, where like, I think Bitterblue is listing, like, Giddon’s desirable traits, and lists, like, the type of stuff you would normally list like, handsome and like, courageous or whatever, smart, who knows. And then one of the things she lists is just, Big. [laughs] And I love that that’s just casually inside that list, among all those other terms. And I’m just like, yes. [wheezes with laughter] Big.
GiannaMarie 31:53
There’s actually a lot more like, size power dynamics, in that, I mean, obviously, all of — all of the Graceling books are about power. But um, there’s a lot more about like size power dynamics in this book than any of the others —
Ron 31:55
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 32:08
— because I suppose didn’t, like, so much matter in the others? because Fire and Katsa are so… powerful in their own ways. But Bitterblue is a very small woman. And Lovisa is a very small woman, and Giddon is much larger than both of them. Hava is a normal sized woman, and Bitter- and Giddon is huge. Um, the Keeper, non-Keeper monster creature — like, they’re like, we would like you to help, because you are Big. [both laugh] Like? I don’t know, a lot of it was adorable. Um..,
Ron 32:53
Yes.
GiannaMarie 32:55
You were saying something about Giddon’s grief before we were getting into Lovisa’s grief.
Ron 32:59
Yeah. So. At the beginning of the book, Giddon and Hava, like, their actions are like, very, very informed by grief, Giddon is kind of like— he’s still doing really useful things, but he’s almost useless in a way? At the — for the first, like, third? Of the book, because like, he’s just kind of like, going through the motions, and like so miserable that he’s like, just completely unobservant and stuff, whereas Hava is like, very fuelled by, like, how upset she is. And she’s, like, very volatile because of it.
GiannaMarie 33:11
[loud sigh] [sad sigh]
Ron 33:40
But like, she’s like the one who’s dragging him around everywhere and getting stuff done, but there’s multiple scenes where Hava will be like, didn’t you notice XYZ? And Giddon will be like, [sad tone] No, I was thinking about Bitterblue.
GiannaMarie 33:52
Oh my god, yes.
Ron 33:53
Also, if you want an example of a book with a man who cries —
GiannaMarie 33:59
SO MUCH.
Ron 34:00
He cries so much in this book, and he —
GiannaMarie 34:03
There’s actually -
Ron 34:04
At one point, he’s literally like, this is just who I am now. [laughing] I just cry all the time!
GiannaMarie 34:09
I know! He cries to dinner parties, like, more than two — [Ron laughing]
Ron 34:15
He also faints from emotion at one point, and it’s amazing.
GiannaMarie 34:19
[squeaking] YES. When he sees that Bitterblue is alive, he just looks at her and then it’s, and then like, slowly collapses into the floor, and everyone is just casually making dinner [Ron laughing] while this humongous man is lying on the floor in Bitterblue’s lap, and she’s like, I’m gonna tease you for the rest of your life. And he says, “Yes, please.” [laughing] What was I going to say? Um, I knew that Have and Giddon were going to be a team, but there’s such a great buddy cop team! [laughing] Like —
Ron 34:54
Yes.
GiannaMarie 34:55
Hava is very nosy and very volatile, and she — she has only recently — I’ve, I suspect, like — she — she was introduced as a like, compulsive liar? I believe. But now she’s like, Bitterblue’s best friend. Um, she’s — she and Giddon are a tag team of spies, where she’ll just get in someone’s business really aggressively and Giddon will pretend to be a tired older brother. [imitating] Hava. Hava. Oh, yes, he is a man who cries. He also — there’s several mentions to the fact that every day when he wakes up, he just cries for a long while before he pulls himself together to do anything. Um, and he — [laughing] And he -and he’s like, really alarmed that he can’t stop crying. Like, it’s never happened before. I’ve always been able to cry until the tears stopped, but it looks like the tears are just forever! [both laughing] Um, I was going to say something else. Oh, probably one of my favorite Giddon moments of the entire book when you were saying he’s just kind of blundering around in a stupor while Hava drags him places. [laughing] They get caught snooping in someone’s house. And someone — and the person says to Hava like, oh, how did you blah, blah, blah. And Hava’s like, we’re not stupid! Of course we know about this! [laughing harder] And Giddon raises his hand and he’s like, “I’m stupid, Hava figured it out.” [both laughing]
Ron 36:31
[crying out] Yes! I wrote that down in my notes.
GiannaMarie 36:34
I didn’t write any notes because I was so sick this week.
Ron 36:38
Where does he say he’s stupid?
GiannaMarie 36:38
Um, there was another particularly good point where…um, Giddon makes Hava leave the room when there’s drama happening, back before they — before Bitterblue’s accident, and then Hava forks out all of this relationship information that Giddon had not noticed for the last five years. [both laughing] Page 28 — this — I mean, he kind of behaves this way even before he’s grieving so hard. On page 28: “‘You’re hopeless,’ Hava said, holding a fork full of pie out to him, even though he had his own fork. He opened his mouth deciding to accept the pie as a shameful token of his hopelessness.” [laughing hard] “Hava was only twenty years old, but often seemed older and clever than Giddon, who was thirty-one. Except when she was being a brat, which was often enough, though even her brattiness left him feeling six years old, sometimes.” [continually laughing] They’re so good for each other.
Ron 37:48
I just want to read one of my other favorite bumbling scenes of his, so I’m flipping to the page. 195.
GiannaMarie 37:56
I love that this is who he’s grown into. He’s…kind of a himbo now.
Ron 38:01
A bit of a himbo. But like, with moments of like, brilliance, so not quite a himbo.
GiannaMarie 38:09
I — he definitely was not in previous appearances. And I appreciate that this is the man he’s grown into. But —
Ron 38:16
Yes.
GiannaMarie 38:16
— I almost appreciate it more if this is actually how he’s been perceiving the world the entire time, and we just…have missed it? [both laughing] Like, like, there’s a very, a scene that a lot of people took very seriously in Bitterblue, where she like, falls asleep on the couch, and then he helps her into bed. And he’s like, I’ll go get your lady servant to help you take off your clothes and take your hair down, and she’s like, [imperious voice] “I simply cannot sleep with all of these pins in my hair!”, and forces him to take all of the pins out and put her to bed. And she’s so embarrassed about it, and everyone was like, that’s romantic. I’m like, but now thinking on Giddon’s POV…how confused was he? [both laughing hard]
Ron 39:01
Absolutely. He was like, ah, okay, how do I do this with my big giant hands??
GiannaMarie 39:07
I know! He seems so, like, confident and suave in the other books. [both laughing] But he like, seems very much not that way now. [both laughing]
Ron 39:20
Okay, um…
GiannaMarie 39:23
This is really excellent character development because he is a loathsome person in the first book. And that’s already taking like, and he’s already on his like, redemptive path in the first book.
Ron 39:37
Okay, so this is not only a good example of how bumbling Giddon is, but also the end of this passage I’ll include as well, because it’s a good example of like, the Hava-Giddon dynamic.
GiannaMarie 39:49
Aww! Hava is my favorite.
Ron 39:51
So it’s 194 to 195. Let’s see, where should I begin this? Okay… So, basically, they’re staying with someone — we can talk about her later. And the advisors are saying like, what — that they’re gonna go off and do one thing while Giddon and Hava do something else. “‘I hope that when we return,’ said Froggatt stiffly,” — it — and that’s one of the advisors — “‘It won’t be the- to the news that you’ve done anything that would have embarassed the queen.’ And now Giddon was much less sorry to see Froggart” — to see — Froggat — I always want to say Frog Art, and I don’t know why [laughing], like he’s a frog.
GiannaMarie 40:01
[loud snickering at the passage] I always pronounce it Frog-IT.
Ron 40:34
“Giddon was much less sorry to see Froggatt go. Bitterblue’s advisors had never wanted Giddon on this trip. They’d never, not once understood or appreciated his value to her, nor Bitterblue’s delicate and courageous relationship with the Council. ‘You mean embarrassed you,’ he said, then stood and left the table, though not as dramatically as he’d have liked, [laughing] given that first he had to disengage his foot gently from under that pale gray cat who seemed to find his left boot irresistible.” Side note, this house is full of cats. It’s a thing. “‘Sorry,’ he said with his head under the table, then told Frogger- Froggatt in a chilly voice, ‘I was apologizing to the cat, not to you.’ The whole exchange lacked dignity. More seconds after he’d returned to his room, Hava knocked on his door. He was still flustered. ‘Hello,’ he said cautiously as she entered. Hava stared at him with an implacable expression. But he knew it wasn’t her real expression’” — which is cuz of her Grace. It’s complicated. — “She was changing her face. He decided not to comment on it. ‘I think we should go to the harbor,’ she said. ‘See if anyone knows anything relevant about the day of the Seashell went down.’” That’s the boat. “‘Yes. Good idea,’ said Giddon. ‘In fact, I told Quona-’ Kona? Quona? I don’t know. It’s the lady they’re staying with. ‘-we were going to the harbor today.’ [aggressively]’Without asking me if I wanted to go to the harbor?’ ‘You literally just said you did.’ Hava snorted. [snorting] ‘Well, what are you waiting for then, let’s go.’” [laughing]
GiannaMarie 42:33
You read her much more, uh…angrily and teenager-ish-ly [Ron laughing] than I do in my head. I think she unless — except for when she’s angry at him, I feel like she just kind of is like, the tolerant teenager who’s teaching someone how to use a smartphone.
Ron 42:54
Yeah, I feel like she’s probably most of the time more like, very like, flat, dry, like [flat voice] okay…
GiannaMarie 43:01
She puts so much effort into appearing cool. [laughing]
Ron 43:05
Like, okay — for people who have watched The Good Place. She would talk kind of like Bad Janet.
GiannaMarie 43:15
You think???
Ron 43:16
Where Janet — where she’s just like, [tired] ugh, whatever. Like, that tone of voice though. She wouldn’t say the things Bad Janet says. But that exact tone of voice.
GiannaMarie 43:25
Oh my god — no, I was definitely thinking of her as more human but trying to be cool. [Ron laughing] I don’t know. But also, I love her development!! I’m so pr- I mean, I’m mostly proud of Bitterblue, but also the last time we saw Hava, she was 16 and super timid and super traumatized. And, like, she wouldn’t even call Bitterblue by her name. Um, and now she like, gets to have other feelings, like, instead of just being apologetic and traumatized, like, she gets to be angry and grieving and, like, trying to put on a façade and gets to pokin’ around, like, she gets to be — she gets to have moved on more.
Ron 44:07
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 44:07
Like, she’s still hiding parts of herself, but she doesn’t have to hide like, her whole identity, her whole life. Like, she has trusted people. Which brings me to Bitterblue. [emotional] I’m so, so proud of her. [small sobbing noise] Literally, this entire book, every bad thing that happened to Bitterblue she would be like, “I’m stronger than the way this makes me feel.” And I’m like, [slaps hands] yeah you are honey, you’ve survived way worse than this! And she knows it, too! Like, she like, thinks really critically about all of the things that are happening to her. And like, when she escapes from — from captivity, she’s like, so happy, and I’m like, Yes. And she’s like, got everything under control. Like, one of the things that I love so much is that she completely claims her fear of heights and seasickness to like, an-anyone relevant. She’s like, “yes, I’m very afraid of heights. And I get seasick. I’m concerned about this trip.” Like, [laughing] she —
Ron 45:07
So. This brings us into something very fun though [laughing].
GiannaMarie 45:12
She — when, when she, um, it’s just like, flatly stated at some points, like, when she wants Lovisa to stop leaning over the edge, instead of getting her, she scoots across the floor to sit on Lovisa’s feet, because it’s too scary to walk. [loving] Like, I just — she knows herself so well, she’s survived so much, and she knows that nothing could possibly be worse than what she’s already lived through, so everything is so positive to her! And she’s just, like, everything is like, she has so much optimism because she’s such a survivor.
Ron 45:24
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 45:49
Um, I had another Bitterblue — proud Bitterblue note, aside from how well she handles everything, how in control, she is, like, all of her political decisions are very sound. Um, what was my other Bitterblue thought?? Oh, ohhh! I was so happy and proud for her because she was so worried in Bitterblue— in the — in the book Bitterblue that she was — that the only like, I think she said “kisses and all the things that come after” that she was going to have in her life would be with greedy men who want to marry her for her money. Um, and then I was super happy when she did get to like, be lovers with Saf for a hot second before he ran away in Bitterblue.
Ron 46:33
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 46:33
And then in Winterkeep it’s like, Yes, she’s had a string of lovers and boyfriends. And I’m like, [very emotionally] I’m so happy for you!!
Ron 46:42
Yeah —
GiannaMarie 46:42
Because she’s, like, driven to tears more than one point about how undesirable she thinks that she is. And she’s like, no one’s going to ever want me for me. And like, [smiling] clearly, she has had some good experiences, and it just makes me so pleased for her. [gleeful]
Ron 46:59
So something she had —
GiannaMarie 47:00
She’s our age in this book!
Ron 47:02
Uh, like a side note, is that like, so the guy who… So first, there’s the boat that goes missing. That’s basically what brings them over there. Because they know the people on the boat were bringing them some kind of message, and they’re like, Oh, we suspect foul play because these people were bringing us a message. And that’s like, the first initial mystery of the book. But someone else that they know who’s the guy from Winterkeep who had been with Bitterblue, like, romantically, his name — how do you — do you say Kat-too?
GiannaMarie 47:38
I’ve been saying Kat-too.
Ron 47:39
Okay, me too. So —
GiannaMarie 47:43
Maybe Kah-too?
Ron 47:45
Yeah, maybe like, something along those lines, whatever, we won’t think too hard about it. So this guy, Kah-too or Kat-too, K-A-T-U —
GiannaMarie 47:54
I’ve been thinking Kah-too.
Ron 47:55
From Winterkeep had — was, like, a romantic interest of Bitterblue’s, who went back to Winterkeep, and has been looking for the boat, and that’s why he ends up being the other person who gets abducted. Which relates to this because partially, he sounds like a phenomenal guy, I wish we got to know him a little bit better?
GiannaMarie 48:18
I know!!
Ron 48:18
But also like, we do get to know him surprisingly well for the amount of time he’s actually on the page because other people are constantly like, thinking about how awesome he is, basically! Um, so but like, definitely —
GiannaMarie 48:32
Giddon is upset about how awesome he is. [both laughing] And then he reminds himself, he’s actually my friend. Like, he’s done good things for me, I’m happy he makes Bitterblue happy. [laughing] Because the two of them doofuses don’t talk to each other about their feelings until after the — until the day that they — that he finds out that she’s alive. They’ve been growing feelings for five years!
Ron 49:01
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 49:03
And they didn’t talk about it once! [laughing]
Ron 49:09
So yeah, that’s basically what I was gonna get into too. But also like, Katu I’m sure was like, a really positive, like, sexual romantic interest for Bitterblue, like, one of the good ones, because she definitely does also talk about that there was like, one guy that she talked to who like was, like, a specific — like, potential political prospect to like, marriage…dude that she could have been into, but she like, talked to him and was like, No, we’re just gonna, like, have fun together. I don’t want to marry you ever. And he was like, cool, it’s chill. And then like, when she eventually ended it, he was like, why? [indistinguishable angry noises] why don’t you love me??
GiannaMarie 49:52
No, he’s upset because she — she because she’s cold and doesn’t give her heart away. Which, she screams, “I’m a generous lover!” back to him. [both laughing] I love her so much.
Ron 50:06
I still think getting angry at someone for that is like, not justified.
GiannaMarie 50:15
No, it was — Yeah. [Ron chuckling] I — yeah. I —
Ron 50:20
Like, getting hurt by that is justified, but yelling at someone for that is absolutely unjustified.
GiannaMarie 50:26
Did you catch the the small detail that, uh — so this has been five years since the end of Bitterblue. But Saf and Bitterblue were over four years ago, which makes me — it fulfills my great wish that after he returned from the Dells, which — where I suppose he and Skye became a thing —
Ron 50:47
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 50:47
That he and Bitterblue would be like, friends with benefits, which it appears that they were, for a year, before they like, finally split for good [Ron laughing] because he and Po’s brother were gettin’ it on and I’m so happy for them?? [high voice] I’m so happy for them. Small side note: um, Saf’s boyfriend Skye, um, like, his coming out was a — was like a deal that people were dealing with in Bitterblue. And it appears that things are — are well and fine with that now and I’m very happy that they have each other because honestly, they would probably get along famously and it appears that they do. And also something that was a problem in Bitterblue was that Raffin, who was one of Graceling’s main characters, um, he’s gay. And he’s, he’s supposed to marry a woman, because he has to have a kid, because he’s a prince. And it’s very essential that Raffin become king after his father because his father is awful, and they want the place to be in good hands, and he’s part of this revolutionary group, etc. And he has a boyfriend that has been with him for 13 years — at least 13 years that we know of — , um, and it was like, a problem that, that their laws and like, systems aren’t set up to allow that. But by this time, like, it’s publicly known that he is his consorts. So there’s like a place for him in in their law and like, in the Middluns’ court, which is progress and makes me pleased for them.
Ron 52:24
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 52:24
That hit me so much harder than the detail ought. [laughing]
Ron 52:28
One thing I will say though, which is just like a minor bone to pick, because I don’t think the characters that we know of who are gay really had the space for much in the way of like, on-page stuff happening with a partner in this book, but it does bug me slightly that like, we know that there’s two separate characters in this book who…are gay, who we never see be gay on the page? Ever? Especially with like, Lovisa, like, we know that she’s gay and we even know that she is interested potentially in —
GiannaMarie 53:16
In Nev.
Ron 53:16
— in another female character. Lovisa’s also a female character. But like, we never see anything on-page of Lovisa doing — like, we see Lovisa on-page being sexual and being interested in men multiple times, but we never see anything on page like, physically happen with a woman….which bothers me just a little bit?
GiannaMarie 53:45
I think that she…well first of all, she’s clear that she like, doesn’t like just dudes, but I…got a huge like, vibe off of her like, that she’s a-spec in some way? Because she doesn’t really seem to desire sex. Like, she uses sex as a tool in snooping around her parents’ house and she’s extremely surprised when she enjoys it and she feels attraction to the guard that gets fired because of it.
Ron 54:18
Well, she doesn’t — she doesn’t desire sex in like, a emotional way. She definitely desires it in a like, physical way.
GiannaMarie 54:30
I’m not even sure that she desires…sex. In that way. Because she talks about it as, like, a distraction and something for her body to feel, she doesn’t talk about like, wanting pleasure. She talks about like, wanting like, to be tired and being able to sleep afterward.
Ron 54:55
But she also does talk about like, wanting the feeling of it. Like, there’s a point where she talks about like, that her body is physically responding to like, the really creepy dude. Perry.
GiannaMarie 55:09
Oh, yes.
Ron 55:09
No, not Perry. What is it? There’s another guy named Perry it’s like — P something.
GiannaMarie 55:15
Pari. Not Perry-short-for-Periwinkle.
Ron 55:18
Yeah. Um, so we definitely do know that like the physical sensation is like, something like, that her body physically like, craves at times because she literally says it does.
GiannaMarie 55:37
I still feel like she’s on a-spec some stuff.
Ron 55:40
I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m just saying that I don’t think the distinction you’re making is…quite right.
GiannaMarie 55:50
I — I get demiromantic vibes off of Lovisa.
Ron 55:55
Yeah, I agree.
GiannaMarie 55:57
So…recipro-sexual is a sexual orientation on the asexual spectrum, meaning someone who does not experience sexual attraction unless they know that the other person is sexually attracted to them first.
Ron 56:09
I don’t think that’s quite right then, because like, I mean, kind of? But I think she kind of just assume she can get whoever she wants.
GiannaMarie 56:18
She can, she’s very — pretty and popular—
Ron 56:19
Which seems to be true? Yes.
GiannaMarie 56:20
Well, she’s not pretty, but she is…very rich and powerful.
Ron 56:24
What do you mean, she’s not pretty? [laughing]
GiannaMarie 56:25
It says several times that she’s plain. Like Bitterblue.
Ron 56:31
Oh.
GiannaMarie 56:32
Neither Bitterblue nor Lovisa are extraordinary beauties, they just look like normal people. Bitterblue describes herself as being shaped like an eggplant, and wonders — [Ron laughing hard] if anyone would be able to love an eggplant. Apparently many people.
Ron 56:48
That just means she’s pear-shaped! Which is — a normal body type to have that many people are attracted to, because it means you’ve got ~that hip~ and ~that booty.~
GiannaMarie 56:58
Clearly! [Ron laughing] She has a string of lovers! Giddon is like — she’s like, I wanna be your emotional support. And he’s like, I’m fine right now, sweetheart. And she’s like, [aggressivley] I’m making a point! He’s like, Okay, can I get points for rescuing your ex-lover? She’s like, yes. [both laughing]
Ron 57:18
But um — [GiannaMarie continuing laughing] like, I think that she — it’s not exactly that she — I just think the way that she interacts with sex in general is like, not the same, like, not in the way where people usually talk about sex, where they’re like, Oh, yeah, it’s what you do. When you like, love someone or something. But it’s also not that she doesn’t want it.
GiannaMarie 57:50
I’m gonna say I believe that she has, like, she experiences arousal. Like, but I don’t know that she really experiences attraction until she’s already like, committed to the sexual experience.
Ron 58:12
Yeah. But I also just, I guess what I’m trying to say is, I don’t think that just because she enjoys sex— because of like, the way that the sex — like, I don’t think that the fact she enjoys sex for different reasons than the reasons normal people would say they enjoy sex — or, not normal, but like average, like, expectations of why someone would say they like sex are not the reason she likes it? I don’t think that…devalues the fact that she does like it.
GiannaMarie 58:18
She’s for real not straight. I don’t know how to reply to this because I agree? But I don’t know what to say. I agree. [Ron laughing] I — I see a little bit of what you’re saying about why doesn’t she like, have a random girl that she uses for sex on screen? Um, and I do not know.
Ron 59:08
Because also not even that, like, cuz it also makes sense she would use guys for what she does because they’re very, like, really snap quick, like, seduction scenes.
GiannaMarie 59:21
She considers a girl that she knows because she’s like, I’ve — I’ve done it with her before, but she talked so much. No, can’t do that again. [laughing]
Ron 59:29
Yeah, like I just wish there was more like, on-page — just cuz — I don’t — it’s just like an issue that comes up in TV shows like, the one that I’m thinking of right now is Vampire Diaries, because I just watched a really good video essay about it. But Vampire Diaries has eight seasons. And in like, the first six or five? There were two gay characters at two separate times. And neither of them ever had a onscreen partner ever. So it’s like, how much are you really doing there? And I definitely think this is better than that. But it still is a little bit like, you have two gay characters, but you never have anything actually happen on, like, on-page, on-screen. Why does the queerness need to be subtle when nothing about the straightness is ever subtle? And I don’t mean this as like, a major criticism of this book. But I think it’s important to talk about because it happens all the time. In like, media in general. We’ve talked a lot about Lovisa, and her like, various relationships with romance and sex. [laughing] But, um, there’s a lot more to Lovisa than that. I don’t know if I really have a place to begin with Lovisa, though. With other stuff. I guess another thing about her is that she is — okay, so here’s something. I think it’s really interesting that Lovisa and Bitterblue have so much in common, but Bitterblue never…has a conversation, really, with Lovisa to that effect.
GiannaMarie 1:01:28
Do you think that that would have — do you think that was necessary?
Ron 1:01:33
No, but I think that it’s interesting that it is something that seems to be specifically like, avoided? Which — could partially be because it seems like nobody in Winterkeep really knows the history of like, Bitterblue’s kingdom and like, has any inclination of what they’ve all been through —
GiannaMarie 1:01:53
They know that something very bad happened in their recent history — and that’s why they’re able to take advantage of them, but.
Ron 1:01:56
Yeah. They don’t know the specifics, yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:02:00
Um, I think Trina is the only person who has any understanding, and that’s just because she is from the Royal Continent.
Ron 1:02:13
Yeah. Because like, the foxes, um — so, something I don’t think we’ve explained yet in this episode, um — in Winterkeep there are — they’re called blue foxes. They’re not actually blue. They’re like blue in the way that when we talk about like —
GiannaMarie 1:02:25
The babies are blue!
Ron 1:02:26
— Yeah, when we talk about like, a blue animal, like, we don’t mean blue, we mean like a silvery gray. They’re blue in that way.
GiannaMarie 1:02:40
Well, blue whales beg to differ. [laughing]
Ron 1:02:43
No, I mean, like, if you say like, a dog is, like, I forget what the breed is called, or something. But like, there’s something that’s like a blue…something. I don’t know. But like, it’s actually gray. Um, when you talk about animals with FUR [laugh], and you call ’em blue, you actually mean that they’re gray. Um, anyway, so there’s these blue foxes and they’re like, really tiny, and like — they’re not the size of like, red, stereotypical —
GiannaMarie 1:03:18
American.
Ron 1:03:18
— US foxes. Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:03:20
Yeah.
Ron 1:03:21
Um, and —
GiannaMarie 1:03:23
I did some impromptu fox research, and an arctic fox is like, two feet long and like nine pounds? So…approximately Arctic foxes, I think?
Ron 1:03:36
Yeah, that sounds about right. Um, but these foxes…[dramatically] have a secret. [laughing]
GiannaMarie 1:03:43
Oh my god. Okay, that’s an excellent way to tie into Lovisa. Because, like, so much of the plot happens because of the secrets of foxkind, because of poor Adventure, who’s trying to follow all the rules, but also lo- likes certain people better than others, and he’s like, how do I take care of these people without betraying all the foxkind???
Ron 1:04:05
So basically, the foxes, what they allow people to believe about them [GiannaMarie giggling] is that they are telepathic but can only understand a human if they like, bond with that human. And then they’ll like, kind of, once they’re bonded with a human then that means they’ll basically just like, really want to like, support that human so if the human asked them to do things —
GiannaMarie 1:04:28
They’ll be obedient!
Ron 1:04:29
They’ll help them out. Yeah, the truth…is that the foxes can completely read any mind they want —
GiannaMarie 1:04:37
Except for people who are practiced at closing their minds —
Ron 1:04:41
Yeah. Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:04:41
— because of monsters and mind readers.
Ron 1:04:44
But — yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:04:45
But on the nation — on the continent of Torla, no one has any experience with that, so their minds are, in Adventure’s words, “hanging wide open.” [laughing] Just for foxes to — [indistinguishable]
Ron 1:04:57
Yeah, what I mean by they can read anybody’s mind is like, there are no limitations based on who they’re bonded to or anything.
GiannaMarie 1:05:02
Yeah! They’re little telepathic voyeurs!
Ron 1:05:04
They can also completely understand human speech, I’m pretty sure. Um, so.
GiannaMarie 1:05:12
So they —
Ron 1:05:12
So they are also like, highly intelligent, people don’t understand that. But like, they know how to — something that is a like, Prime Fox Skill is like, replacing vent, like, grille cover screws with like, hinges, [GiannaMarie making impressed noises] so that they can swing up, and they can hide inside the vents. And they can like, sneak around and — get up to no good, basically. Um.
GiannaMarie 1:05:16
Yes, yes! [both laughing]
Ron 1:05:41
So, basically, the reason that they have kept all these secrets is because they know that if humans understood how, like, how powerful and like, intelligent these foxes are, they would want to like, take advantage of that in some way?
GiannaMarie 1:06:00
They would change the laws, so they’re not as favorable to foxes anymore.
Ron 1:06:03
Yeah. But the way that —
GiannaMarie 1:06:04
Basically, foxes get spoiled and get to eat whatever they want and —
Ron 1:06:06
And yeah, foxes have, because foxes have gotten people to believe that, basically, oh, it’s just this cool creature who, if I bond with, it’ll read my mind and do cool things for me!
GiannaMarie 1:06:16
[laughing] The bond is fake!
Ron 1:06:17
They treat them as like, very respected pets, who are kind of like, allowed to go around —
GiannaMarie 1:06:28
Anywhere.
Ron 1:06:28
— where they please. And like, are not paid way too much attention to but are like, respected and taken care of. And like, protected by laws.
GiannaMarie 1:06:38
They have a really good scam going.
Ron 1:06:41
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:06:41
It’s very beneficial to them. I’m quite proud of them for organizing it. [laugh] And somehow purging collective memory of the fact that they — like, [laughing] it must have taken a while to like, organize, right?
Ron 1:07:00
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:07:08
[sustained laughing] So —
Ron 1:07:09
I’d imagine it’s kind of like, in their history, what I’d imagine happened is like, the foxes realized that humans were like, taking — like, industrializing and stuff, and basically pretended to become domesticated is what I would guess happened.
GiannaMarie 1:07:30
Mmm.
Ron 1:07:30
And then, like, made up their whole system as humans were developing their system.
GiannaMarie 1:07:36
That’s a thought. I haven’t given mine — my — my theories much thought.
Ron 1:07:41
Well, I just came up with that thought, like, right now. [laughing] But that would make the most sense of how like, nobody knows.
GiannaMarie 1:07:48
Well, here’s the — it’s definitely interesting that they’ve organized this system, when you would imagine that earlier in their history, they just talked to whoever they wanted.
Ron 1:07:58
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:07:59
So, something changed.
Ron 1:08:01
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:08:02
So let’s talk about our specific fox, Adventure Fox; Adventure for short. He was taken from a fox sanctuary to like, be buttered up by the abusive mom? And like, lived in that house soaking in the drama for a year. [laughing] And then he saw Lovisa like, sneaking around, and he fell in love with her, because she was like a baby fox, that she was all sneaking and “she knew her parents had interesting secrets. And she was smart enough to know to pretend not to know.” And then he saw her do something that she was going to get in trouble for, and he was like, Oh, No. Because of — the parents punish the children by locking them in an attic with no food, um, or by hitting and manipulating etc, awful things. And he was basically just like, [screaming] I’ve decided to bond with you!! As a distraction to the mom and then locked himself in this life of servitude. By accident! Like, he did not fully appreciate how bad it was going to be. [laughing]
Ron 1:09:11
So he also has seven siblings, and all of his siblings — so legally, you’re only supposed to bond with one fox. But his seven siblings have all bonded to this one woman because like, honestly, she’s cool, so like, sure.
GiannaMarie 1:09:29
She spoils them, and she cares for them.
Ron 1:09:31
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:09:31
She has 10 plus foxes. Only seven living at her house though.
Ron 1:09:35
She’s like a hardcore, like…
GiannaMarie 1:09:39
Environmentalist crazy cat lady.
Ron 1:09:40
Environmentalist — and, well, part of the reason she has the cats is just to hide the foxes —
GiannaMarie 1:09:47
A smokescreen for the foxes!!
Ron 1:09:48
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:09:49
[definiteively] But she still loves them.
Ron 1:09:51
Yeah, she definitely still cares about the cats. But they’re — part of the reason she has 12 cats is just to conceal her foxes coming in and out. Um, but so —
GiannaMarie 1:10:03
Hava and Giddon are like, did you look closely at all of the cats?? When they’re trying to figure out if she has secret foxes. [both laughing]
Ron 1:10:12
But it was like, her —
GiannaMarie 1:10:13
Giddon’s like, No, they’re cats! They’re cats!! He’s so flustered.
Ron 1:10:17
Her, um — so the seven foxes that are Adventure’s siblings, um, literally say, Hey Adventure, you should fake your own death and come live with us! [laughing]
GiannaMarie 1:10:38
[emotionally] He does fake his own death —
Ron 1:10:41
Yes.
GiannaMarie 1:10:41
— so he can choose Bitterblue!
Ron 1:10:44
Yes. And because Adventure has like, issues with the secrets, but doesn’t want to, like ruin it, because obviously, like, giving away the secret is very — causes a lot of problems and like, it’s for the best that they have their secrets because that allows them to be safe. And like —
GiannaMarie 1:11:04
And fairly autonomous, yes.
Ron 1:11:06
Yeah. Um, but the secrets are like, not chill with him. Because basically to protect these secrets, he had to like, enable this horrible woman and like, find really roundabout ways of trying to thwart her. And like, occasionally aid her and — because if he like, didn’t listen to what she said, it would like, ruin the secrets of foxkind. So like, when she said, “Hey, watch my kids and let me know if they’re doing what I don’t want them to do,”
GiannaMarie 1:11:33
[loud sigh]
Ron 1:11:33
Like, he has to do that.
GiannaMarie 1:11:35
Yeah.
Ron 1:11:35
Because if he got caught not doing it — but, alternatively, if he sees the kids doing something [laughing] that she wouldn’t want, he’ll pretend he knows nothing about it and do everything that he can to distract her and keep her from finding out.
GiannaMarie 1:11:48
Yes, he saves Bitterblue’s life on more than one occasion. Um.
Ron 1:11:54
Um, yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:11:56
And, like, helps her survive in this little attic prison, and then legit, full-stop MURDERS the woman that he was ~”bonded”~ to, like — he trips her down a flight of stairs and then…[emotional] chokes her??
Ron 1:12:11
Yeah. It’s a very disturbing scene. Like, especially because of how upsetting it is with like, how much thought and like, time that he had to put into it?
GiannaMarie 1:12:26
Survivor’s guilt, we forgot survivor’s guilt!
Ron 1:12:29
Um, and he, like, it’s a very graphic scene of someone having to…kill someone and not wanting to do that? And like, being fully aware of how bad it is. And like, having all the power. Like, it’s very much not a case of like, “Oh, she’s fighting me and I’m defending myself!” It’s like, No, I straight-up murdered her.
GiannaMarie 1:12:53
It was cold-blooded and calculated.
Ron 1:12:58
Yeah. But. On a more light and fun note, I need to share the names —
GiannaMarie 1:13:03
[laughing] I knew you were going to.
Ron 1:13:03
— of seven siblings. Okay, there’s one that is my favorite.
GiannaMarie 1:13:10
I know which one is your favorite.
Ron 1:13:12
So, the siblings are: Rascal, Rumpus, Lark, Gladly, Sophie, which is short for Sophisticated, Pickle, and Genius. [laughing] My favorite is Pickle. [both laughing] Uh, I — so —
GiannaMarie 1:13:29
We forgot to say that all of them choose their names!
Ron 1:13:33
Yes, they all choose their own names, which, for me as a trans person, I’m like, trans rights! Choose your name! [sustained laughing]
GiannaMarie 1:13:39
I knew you were going to feel very trans feelings about the fact that one of the reasons why adventure doesn’t like the abusive mom — aside from all of the glaring reasons — is that she’s never once asked him what his name is.
Ron 1:13:52
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 1:13:52
And Bitterblue asks him like, pretty quickly.
Ron 1:13:56
Yeah, as soon as she finds out —
GiannaMarie 1:13:58
That foxes have names.
Ron 1:13:59
— because at first Bitterblue is captured — and she is like, just talking to this fox, she doesn’t even know foxes have names, and it is not what she’s thinking about, she’s thinking about escaping. But then like, the first time they meet up after she’s escaped, in their first conversation, she figures out foxes have names and is like, oh, what’s your name? Can I call you by your name? And he’s like, yes, please!!
GiannaMarie 1:14:20
“My siblings call me Ad.” [both laughing]
Ron 1:14:25
But also, I just really want to know how Pickle chose “Pickle” and I really want to know all about Pickle’s personality. [laugh] Like -
GiannaMarie 1:14:33
What about Earmuff?
Ron 1:14:36
Well, we kinda know why Earmuff chose “Earmuff.” Earmuff is a different fox, but Earmuff is basically a fox that loves being pampered and like, finds ways to manipulate her — her bonded person and to getting her little sweaters and stuff and like, pretends to — she has problems regulating her body temperature [breaking into laughter] so she gets to wear like booties and little clothes. [laughter]
GiannaMarie 1:14:58
Adventure is dealing with serious child abuse and also a kidnapping, is like, I do not have time for Earmuff-
Ron 1:15:06
[loud chuckle]
GiannaMarie 1:15:06
- this frivolous person in my life! I can’t handle it, I’m so — so much of Adventure is like, I’m so anxious!! I’m so stressed! How does anyone take care of humans? They’re so awful to each other. I need to protect two people, but also the kids, but also these two people, and it’s so hard when they make their own decisions, why can’t — and he wants to go in the airship so badly. [laughing] One of the things that his siblings are like, if you faked your death and joined us in our house, you know that she lets us ride in her airship. And he’s like, I try to forget about it. I won’t do that. But he keeps trying to manipulate the abusive dad into thinking about how distinguished he would look with the fox — [both laughing] riding at his side in the airship, which gives me humongous Jane, Unlimited vibes. Like, Adventure is much more ethically questionable than Jasper but like, Jasper slash Steen, but um, they give off similar vibes to me in their like, frantic rule-following, like, I’m pretty sure that Jane at one point is like, “you’re the kind of Strayhound who’s never been to the principal’s office.” And [laughing] when Adventure is like, confessing all of his crimes, at the end, I was like, Oh, yes. Oh, yes, I see it. [laughing hard] I see the connection. [sustained laughter] He’s so much of a rule follower that it broke him. Because he backed himself into this situation out of love for this little child, that — but then he had to do horrible things in service of the rules to protect foxkind and now he’s like, I’m defecting. I’m gonna start a whole new culture of foxes over in Monsea. [laughing]
Ron 1:16:57
Um -
GiannaMarie 1:16:59
Okay, one of the things that he does like about the abusive mom is that she has a good hood to cuddle in…and Bitterblue has that coat for most of the book. And she’s like, would you like to cuddle in my hood? And he’s like, I don’t know!! And she’s like, Oh my god, I forgot I wear the abusive mom’s coat cuz I stole it off her body. Like, does that make you uncomfortable? And he’s like, [aggressively] no, I want to ride in the hood. [both laughing] He loves the hood!!
Ron 1:17:30
That was also the point when I realized how small the foxes were. The first time he was in the hood. I was like, Ohhhhkay, I was like, either she has a neck and the spine of steel, or this fox is smaller than what I was imagining.
GiannaMarie 1:17:45
Okay, the t- when Quona walks in on Hava and Giddon in her space, and Giddon’s like, “I’m stupid, Hava figured it out,” — that scene? She has like six foxes hanging off of her. And she’s like, Can we go to the sitting room? And Hava’s like, “No, I’d like to have this conversation right in front of the desk. This desk interests me.” And Giddon is like, I have to take pity on this woman, and like, pulls a chair out for her and she just collapses [laughing] into it because there’s so many foxes on her. [both laughing]
Ron 1:18:19
Um, I don’t think we mentioned specifically — what she has the seven foxes that she has to do for her is just go around and steal shit. And then —
GiannaMarie 1:18:28
She invites people over so she can send seven foxes to go snoop and take things. [laughing]
Ron 1:18:36
And then she like, she goes through everything, basically, and figures out if it’s useful, and if it’s useful, she’ll use it for like, her — her goal of like, —
GiannaMarie 1:18:49
Environmental safety.
Ron 1:18:50
— getting environmental stuff to go through. Yeah. Like she was going to offer someone, um — So basically their — yeah. So Winterkeep is the only place that has airships because one of the people there is the person who invented the type of gas and system used for the airships. So the other surrounding like, kingdoms or whatever they are — principalities, who knows?
GiannaMarie 1:18:59
The prize formula for the airships. Nations.
Ron 1:19:20
Nations, sure.
GiannaMarie 1:19:21
They’re all republics of some kind. And they — think that it’s quaint, that there are so many [overcome with laughter] monarchies on the Royal Continent. Bitterblue is like, [shouting] I can’t help that my kingdom is backwards!!
Ron 1:19:24
Yeah. Um, but so anyway, um, none of them have the airships because they can’t get the, like, formula. So she steals the formula, so that she can sell it to someone else. Um, so that that person will want to profit off of it. And that will prevent the spread of — the more dangerous chemical that’s a pollutant that the council is going to be like, or the parliament, is going to be voting whether or not to legalize, so she can flip that person by being like, no, don’t vote to legalize this, you want — you want the goods so you can sell this formula to all these different nations, and you can make all this money. Um —
GiannaMarie 1:20:30
I love how jaded Lovisa is about politics — because how else could she be, growing up in that house — but also, like, she’s very correct that everyone is motivated by self-interest and greed in politics, [laughing] —
Ron 1:20:44
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 1:20:44
— like I…And she’s, and Bitterblue is like —
Ron 1:20:47
And she also —
GiannaMarie 1:20:47
— so you don’t jump off the ledge, please come and explain to me the intricacies of your political system. And Lovisa is like, so jaded. Bitterblue observes, Lovisa had a lot of opinions, most of them were that people are really corrupt and motivated by monetary greed. [laughing]
Ron 1:21:07
So — something we haven’t said specifically, I don’t think, is that Lovisa’s mom and dad are members of opposing parties, like, important members of opposing parties —
GiannaMarie 1:21:18
Her mother is technically the president.
Ron 1:21:19
— which I think is really important. At the very beginning of this story, we are basically told that the two opposing part like everyone thinks their relationship is like, so interesting and everything, and they’re like, even though their views are so different, like, they love each other so much! And like…., no. Like, if you, for example, have a very right wing person and a very left wing person, and those people are in a relationship, that means there are problems. And like, if that was truly what the relationship was, it would be very problematic. Extremely problematic. But what this highlights is, the reason that their opposing viewpoints aren’t a breaking point for their relationship is because they don’t actually have opposing viewpoints. They’re just playing two different sides, and — Yeah, it’s all about the money. So like, because if they actually cared about what they claim to care about, they could never be compatible. But like, the one party — so there’s the Scholar Party and the Industrial Party, and theoretically, the Scholar Party’s supposed to care about the environment, um — literally —
GiannaMarie 1:22:44
The industrialists are worried that Winterkeep is going to be left behind.
Ron 1:22:48
Also, like, literally Lovisa’s mother is the party leader of the Scholar Party, and is a miner of the most harmful pollutant anyone knows of.
GiannaMarie 1:23:05
[deep sigh]
Ron 1:23:08
[laughing] So it’s like, oh! Now it makes sense how she’s with this guy from the Industrialist Party, cuz — she doesn’t actually give a shit about the party she’s in.
GiannaMarie 1:23:19
Yeah. Also, they’re all like, why is this even-? Why are we even having a question about zilfium, which is the pollutant, the fuel. Um, like, why — it doesn’t matter, our continent is running out of it, and then it’s like, ohhhh, Bitterblue has more than anyone has ever seen before.
Ron 1:23:39
Yes.
GiannaMarie 1:23:39
Her mountains are just full of zilfium. And someone has just figured out how to make grenades. There’s, um — there’s a lot of silbercows injured by grenades. [sad sigh] And um -
Ron 1:23:51
Yeah, because they decide, oh, we’ll just test these out in the sea, or nobody’ll see, except the silbercows see. So not only are they’re the ones that are killed by the grenade test, but then they also try and kill all the ones that witnessed this, because they know that silbercows can like, spread information. So.
GiannaMarie 1:24:07
Yes, silbercows are friendly to humans, and they’re telepathic.
Ron 1:24:15
But okay, so something important to talk about. So the mystery of the story basically is like, What is-? So we know that there’s something about zilfium. So when they figure out a little bit more, they’re like, oh, was the big secret that the people died trying to come tell us that Bitterblue has all this zilfium and they’ve been stealing it? And everyone’s basically like, no, everybody knew that was happening. That wasn’t a big enough secret to kill someone over. Um, and I think the really interesting part of this book is that…so the big secret is that, like, bombs have been created using zilfium. Grenades specifically, have been invented, and at least for me reading this — I literally didn’t realize even though we see a grenade earlier, because someone finds one, um, actually the Keeper finds one, we see a grenade. We’re like, oh, okay, and she doesn’t know what it is. But like, it took forever for it to click for me. Oh, that’s what the big secret about zilfium is! Because our world already has all this stuff!!
GiannaMarie 1:25:22
Interesting.
Ron 1:25:22
So like, it didn’t occur to me that that would be like, the big secret. Because I was just like, okay, she found a grenade, she doesn’t know what it is. And then like, as the book kept going, I was like, Oh, wait, this is a world where they use swords.
GiannaMarie 1:25:37
Yes. [both laughing] People are carrying swords. The biggest weapon is Katsa.
Ron 1:25:45
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:25:50
Yeah, there’s — it’s a very well-written mystery. Um, I have a kinda silly question. So you know how there was originally intended to be an earthquake in Bitterblue?
Ron 1:26:05
What?
GiannaMarie 1:26:06
In the first several drafts, there was an earthquake in Bitterblue.
Ron 1:26:10
Why would I know that?
GiannaMarie 1:26:11
Because it might have rubbed off…. Because I say things to you all the time that I forget later. Um, you know, so many trivia things about things that I care about that I’ve forgotten that I’ve told you. But anyway, I’ve spent years wondering when this earthquake was supposed to happen in the plot. And today, Kristin Cashore tweeted, like, apparently that — there were plans for an earthquake in Winterkeep too?? So where do you think the earthquake was supposed to be? Like, plot wise?
Ron 1:26:40
I have no idea.
GiannaMarie 1:26:42
I’ve been thinking about it obsessively since I got the alert from that tweet. [laughing] This afternoon. I almost feel like the most cinematic moment for an earthquake would have been the house fire.
Ron 1:26:59
Yeah. It also could have been like, instead of Lovisa doing it, like, the earthquake could have made what everything — like, been what made everything go sideways?
GiannaMarie 1:27:12
Like the earthquake is why the fire gets worse?
Ron 1:27:17
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:27:17
Yes, that’s what I was thinking.
Ron 1:27:19
Um, cuz, for context, Lovisa decides, you know what, I have nothing to lose. I know Bitterblue is being held hostage in my attic, I’m going to break her out. And I’m going to do it by lighting a fire in my house to distract everyone. But unfortunately, the fire gets way out of hand because it lights a grenade! That Lovisa didn’t know existed. And then, because of how crazy the fire gets, it lights the big — basically zeppelin they have above their house on fire, and then that lights the neighbors’ on fire as well. So yeah. And then they’re like, we need more laws about how these things are docked, apparently they’re very flammable! [both laughing]
GiannaMarie 1:28:06
I, we already knew that Bitterblue was…so wealthy. Like there’s a — there’s a very incredible scene that I did tweet about where she — where Saf is like, how on earth like, you, you and I were never equals. Just because you were pretending doesn’t mean that we were ever equals, because you could come home to this at night. Like, and she starts to think about power dynamics and asks Po like, I’m very wealthy, aren’t I? And he’s like, I don’t even know how to handle this, and just kneels in front of her and he’s like, Giddon is wealthy, I’m wealthy. Raffin is more. “There’s no word for what you are. And the money at your disposal is only a fraction of your power.” And um… so, her wealth has exploded. Like, it is sooo much more than it was. Because most of her wealth came from her silver mines, way back five years ago. But now, silver is like, a byproduct of zilfium mining. And zilfium is incredibly more valuable than silver. Not only for transportation and industrialization, but now industrialized warfare. And she’s like, next to a nation that wants to take hers over? Apparently. Um, and she is literally — she literally refers to herself as the wealthiest woman in the world. Because she is now. Like, with like a little perspective shift, it’s like ho-ly. Like, she was already incredibly, like, impossibly wealthy and now she’s so wealthy there’s not even an understanding for how wealthy she is. [laugh] Cooling down from that rant. Um, what was I going to say? I wanted to come back to Lovisa and Bitterblue having a lot of things in common. But Bitterblue never confides in her.
Ron 1:30:07
Yes, we got very derailed from — like, I know when I brought that up I had more I was gonna say, and then we just got so derailed off of it. I was like, when are we getting back to it? {laughing]
GiannaMarie 1:30:16
No, I want to get back to it.
Ron 1:30:18
Um, so — what was I saying.
GiannaMarie 1:30:23
It almost feels to me like Bitterblue is…over a lot of the, like, trauma that we saw her working through in Bitterblue. Like it, like, she’s so far past it and her healing and discovering these new places that, like, she just is so forward-focused.
Ron 1:30:43
Mm-hmm. And it also seems like she has like, coping mechanisms that she’s built up and stuff like that as well.
GiannaMarie 1:30:53
Like she doesn’t have any panic attacks in this book! And when she is like, um, high from the drugs so she can safely travel in an airship because she gets height sick. She like, is — she’s asking for her coping mechanisms, which is for complicated math problems for her to solve in her head —
Ron 1:31:19
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 1:31:19
— which we did see her use before. But she doesn’t have any panic attacks in this whole book. And she had so many panic attacks in Bitterblue. And she is in captivity for three weeks in this book, and she’s just like, Okay, I’m healing. Okay, I have a fox friend. All right. I’m going to draw on memories that make me happy.
Ron 1:31:39
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 1:31:39
Okay, I’m doing push ups and I’m practicing my swordplay.
Ron 1:31:43
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:31:43
Like, she’s like, got plans. She’s like, she’ll think about politics the whole time. Like, she’s like, I’m missing a big piece of why they think that they would win a war. Like, I have a lot of military advantages. Something’s going on and I don’t know what it is and that’s why my people were killed. Like, she’s so in control. I…like, she’s grown so much, I’m so proud.
Ron 1:32:13
It literally wasn’t until that point — so we know about the fact the grenade exists way before that. But it isn’t till the point where Bitterblue was like, what do they have? That I don’t know about? But I was like, ohhhh, grenades. That’s important! Because up to that point, I was just like, Oh, it’s a grenade. Like, the Keeper lives in the ocean, so she doesn’t know what a grenade is. And then I was like, wait, no one knows what a grenade is. Holy shit.
GiannaMarie 1:32:32
Yeah, the — the abusive father wants to sell grenades to Estill, which is, it was run by a bad king, the whole plot — the side plot of Bitterblue, all of her friends are like, creating a conspiracy to overthrow them — and overthrow that king and replace him with a republic, I believe. But that republic turns out to be just as shitty. And now they’re in a similarly bad situation. Um, I don’t remember where I was going with that. Oh, so Estill and the Industrialist Party are allied that they’re going to, like, sell the grenades to — the idea of the grenades — to Estill, and then they’re going to kill or ransom Bitterblue so they can steal all of the zilfium from her mines. And take her country, I guess? Did Victoria just arrive?
Ron 1:33:35
Yeah, I’m just gonna not talk for a while because there’s probably a little background noise. [door closing] [laughing]
GiannaMarie 1:33:45
I’m very curious. What do you have on your shoulder?
Ron 1:33:49
A headset.
GiannaMarie 1:33:51
It’s out of frame, mostly.
Ron 1:33:52
There’s a microphone on it, so I’m recording with the headset, but just on my shoulder, cuz I didn’t want to wear the headset. [laughing]
GiannaMarie 1:33:59
Mine is…danglin’. Hey, Victoria.
Ron 1:34:03
What? Yes, you can speak! Yeah, it doesn’t matter, we’re gonna delete this part.
Victoria 1:34:11
You’re set up to record in the living room. So whenever I stumble in, I look and sound like a complete buffoon.
Ron 1:34:20
[laughing]
GiannaMarie 1:34:23
Annaliese is gonna cut this part. It’s not a big deal.
Ron 1:34:25
Yeah.
Victoria 1:34:26
[indistinguishable]
GiannaMarie 1:34:26
Today’s been a mess for trying to record, it’s — you can’t make it worse.
Victoria 1:34:31
Everything almost hit the floor.
Ron 1:34:33
She can’t hear you.
GiannaMarie 1:34:37
[loud laugh] I’ve been talking to her!
Ron 1:34:39
GiannaMarie has been talking to you as if you could hear.
Victoria 1:34:42
Oh. Oops.
Ron 1:34:46
Okay —
Victoria 1:34:46
I probably — you probably thought I was very rude and like, deliberately ignoring you and I apologize.
Ron 1:34:54
Did you hear that? Okay.
GiannaMarie 1:34:55
I did. I just thought it was too quiet for Victoria to hear.
Ron 1:34:59
She said she just thought she was too quiet for you to hear. Okay.
GiannaMarie 1:35:19
I love her scrunchies.
Ron 1:35:23
I love her scrunchies too.
GiannaMarie 1:35:25
It’s such a bold choice. I — I — I love it.
Ron 1:35:28
It’s better for your hair, too.
GiannaMarie 1:35:29
Is it?
Ron 1:35:31
Cuz like, yeah, hair ties, like, cause a lot more breakage than scrunchies do.
GiannaMarie 1:35:35
I have these really cool ones that my mom got me for Christmas that they’re like, soft braided stuff.
Ron 1:35:42
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 1:35:42
But I use flat hair ties for ponytails, like, not the round ones, like flat ones —
Ron 1:35:49
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:35:49
— for ponytails and the end of a braid because they keep the hair tighter. But I use the soft braided ones for the rest of the stuff. Um… I’m trying to think of, I wanted to discuss like, parts where we had emotions. Before we get into the emotions talk, did you have anything else that you wanted to hit? This is such a haphazard recording. [both laugh]
Ron 1:36:19
So — this reminds me of like, the early podcasts, because like, since we’ve, like, normally both had notes, and we’re like, used to it, like, we’ve gotten better at moving through it. But now this — this episode, because you have no notes, is making me feel like the early episodes, were like, you weren’t sure what we were doing, and I would just like, subtly try and guide us on a path. [laughing] Um, but anyway, so the thing I wanted to mention, before we get into that, is what I was talking about before, with, like the fact that the themes, like, some of the themes in this book, I think, are really applicable because of like, the fact that it’s now written for an older audience, it’s like written for the aged-up initial audience of the first three books. Specifically like, this, the theme of like, figuring out what you’re doing with your life is very strong in this book, in a very, like, 20-some- early-20-something type way, like, we have Lovisa trying to figure out the equivalent of “what am I doing with my major?” Which is like a very, very, very age-appropriate quandary for the aged-up readers of these books. And then we also have like, Giddon and Bitterblue trying to navigate the territory of moving from like, casual relationships and like, the dating scene, into like, oh, like, what about a, like, long-term relationship and like, they’re pretty, [laughing] pretty positive by the time they’re just gonna marry each other. Which is so crazy. Like, there’s the scene we’re getting is just like, my future wife!! And I’m like, Whoa, you have not talked about that. And then they’re both talking like, Oh, yeah, we’re totally getting married; and I’m like, you guys never even had a conversation!! [laughing]
GiannaMarie 1:38:34
[plaintive] But she gave her heart and her body! It was — it was clear to both of them. [both laughing] All the little notes that he kept? The unreadable notes that he kept?? [laughing]
Ron 1:38:50
It’s still like, Damn, you’re not even gonna wait to see if this works? You’re just gonna go for it!
GiannaMarie 1:38:56
Yeah.
Ron 1:38:57
Which I mean, cuz like, on one hand, it’s like, yeah, they’ve been doing this all along. But also, like, when you add a new element of like, sexuality to the relationship, it could very well change the relationship in a way that makes it not work out the way you thought it would. But they’re just like, Nope, it’s fine. Here we go.
GiannaMarie 1:39:17
I kind of love that confidence from them.
Ron 1:39:20
[laughing]
GiannaMarie 1:39:21
I enjoy it. I believe less than five days pass between when they are reunited, start sleeping together, and then they tell Bitterblue’s advisors that they’re gonna get married.
Ron 1:39:36
[chuckling] Also, um, one thing that I do have a slight concern about is Bitterblue, at the end says, their children will have to rule Monsea. And I’m like, umm, that’s a weird assumption to make, because you’re trying to turn your kingdom into a republic. So, unless she means, oh, we are transitioning to democracy, like, by the time my kids are like, adults, and my kids are just going to have a voice in government, which is like, yeah. But. I just think it’s a really weird thing to be in there. Like, maybe it was just an unthinkingly-written line, or like, it’s supposed to not really mean anything. But it’s a very weird choice when so much of it is about how like, she wanted the kingdom to transition after, like, assuming she died, except now she’s saying like, that, basically, she would die, and her kids would continue the monarchy and then like, it would be completely out of her hands, and probably monarchy would just continue….1 Even though she knows that it’s not a good system. And it could definitely be that it’s just a line that wasn’t written thinking about those implications, or like, was meant to be like, in the sense of like, the kids are the future!, because it’s, you know, whatever. But it was concerning.
GiannaMarie 1:41:15
I definitely think that the point of that section was about like, that she’s fulfilling one of Giddon’s desires that he hasn’t voiced to her, but we the readers know about, and that, like, this has given her a desire — this relationship with Giddon has given her a desire that she’s never had before. Um.
Ron 1:41:36
Yeah, but like, she didn’t have to say those exact words for —
GiannaMarie 1:41:39
To express that.
Ron 1:41:40
— that to happen. Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:41:46
To be honest, I just don’t think that monarchy is going to last long in this expanding world.
Ron 1:41:53
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:41:58
Maybe she just intends to hand Monsea off to her, presumably well-adjusted and caring children, and then assumes that that will quickly die out into some kind of democracy.
Ron 1:42:12
Also like, something that I was thinking about is like, how much did they tell — in the time when they thought she was dead — and they were starting plans to transition to democracy — how much did they tell the people? Because if the general populace was fully aware of this plan, and then she comes back, and then she’s like, I’m Queen again! I could see that easily leading to rebellions.
GiannaMarie 1:42:37
Well, they love her. Um, she’s like, a beloved queen. But I believe that they were not informing the general populace of her death. [laughing] Because someone asked that at one point, and Giddon was like, the Monsean court has a plan, but we’re not explaining it to everyone right now.
Ron 1:43:04
Yeah, but I just wonder like, how far they got, I assume — cuz it wasn’t that long, they probably didn’t get far enough to the point of releasing the plans. But if they did, that would be very problematic. Cuz like, honestly, I don’t care how much someone cares about their queen. Like, there are definitely some people that would be very upset if they found out they were going to have a voice, and then that voice was taken away.
GiannaMarie 1:43:31
Well, considering the way that Bitterblue’s government is structured, I believe that people do have a voice and her government, but not the way that we traditionally associate with monarchies.
Ron 1:43:42
Yeah, what I’m saying is there would be people who found out they would have actual, like, a share of the political power, basically. And then they’re being told, Oh, nevermind, you just have to tell more important people your problems and hope they listen to you.
GiannaMarie 1:44:01
So this is just more of that mail problem. Ron and I were discussing before we recorded that I was like, I kept expecting Katsa, probably with Po, to show up like, furious towards the end of the book like, Bitterblue is dead, we have to find who did it, we have to punish them. Like, we need to find her body, like — and Ron was like, this makes…no sense. [laughing] And the main reason that it makes no sense is that this book takes place — on the large scale, I think Katu was in that cave for five months in solitary confinement, but the book takes place over like, four weeks. And it takes six weeks? To get a ship from — from Winterkeep to Bitterblue City. So like, it’s like, the news of her death probably hasn’t even gotten there yet. [laugh] So, of course, there’s just not time for Katsa and Po to show up.
Ron 1:45:09
Also, I knew Po wasn’t gonna show up, because his name isn’t even in the back of the glossary thing.
GiannaMarie 1:45:14
[emotionally] I noticed that his wasn’t, and it made me sad.
Ron 1:45:18
[laughing]
GiannaMarie 1:45:18
Okay, I really loved all of the focus on the fact that Bitterblue wears rings now, she didn’t used to. And I love that she does now, um, there’s a ring for Po. And it’s the same ring as his family wears for — as the rest of his family wears for him. But there’s a ring with a large white stone and I’ve been driving myself crazy all week for who that could be. Because I believe the other members of the Lienid royal family were a similar ring for Ror, the king of Lienid, her uncle. And I’m like, but would that ring have been mentioned along with Po’s ring? Is this a ring for Katsa? Like, what would a Katsa ring be? Like, um, I just — I’ve been thinking about it a lot. Um. I wanna know what ring she wears for Hava, I wanna know what ring she’ll wear for Giddon. Like, I want to know all of the details now that we’ve had an even more intimate look into the rings, like, she’s able to give her rings away, like, to pay for things when they’re on the run. But because they’re on another continent who aren’t familiar with Lienid traditions, it doesn’t actually, like, have any political ramifications. [laughing] Whereas, if it was on the Royal Continent, and she was giving her rings away, she would be giving away pieces of her political power. Um, I love — I love the ring thing. And it always makes me want to wear rings for people that I love. But I hate rings, and I can’t handle them sensory. They just are so uncomfortable to me. Like, I — I just cannot handle them. I think rings are beautiful, and I’ve like, love the whole system of rings here, and I can’t — I would never be able to do it.
Ron 1:46:58
[laughing] So the last point that you wanted to talk about was…
GiannaMarie 1:47:13
Feelings.
Ron 1:47:14
Oh, okay.
GiannaMarie 1:47:15
Because I didn’t really have a lot of feelings. I was just kind of like, [sigh] like, I’m wrapped in a warm bath. Like, my main feeling was every time Bitterblue was on screen, I was just like, goddamn, I’m so happy for her. I’m so proud of her. Like, every time Hava is on screen, I’m like the woman with a cupcake meme, Good for her! Like, that’s literally what I was the entire time. And then when, um, [snaps fingers] Lovisa would get on screen, I would be like, okay, it’s serious time, and I would be like, starting to sink into like, the serious Kristin Cashore feel, and then it would switch to someone else. And I’d be like, back to feeling really proud. [laughing] Like, I just felt really confused. And I didn’t have a lot of like, like, I guess some things in the other books just like, [laughing] BROKE me. And I was expecting that, and it didn’t happen. But you said that you had a lot of emotions. So I want to know what your emotional experience of this book was.
Ron 1:48:18
I don’t know. I said I had more emotions for this than for the other books. Like obviously, there was the part that I talked about that’s absolutely horrifying, with the mom. Um, and then immediately after with Adventure murdering her. Yeah, that was definitely like, the most impactful like, horrifying thing. For sure. Um, but I think like, I think compared to — especially if you’ve read Bitterblue — and I say that to like, listeners. I think that, like, Bitterblue’s…trauma, and what she’s had to deal with, and, like, her responses are just like, absolutely through the roof because like, what she’s had to deal with is absolutely beyond anything that anyone p[laugh] has had to deal with, with like, the fact that like, her dad just like, ruined…the world?
GiannaMarie 1:49:33
His — her dad’s Grace was gaslighting, but people believed everything he said.
Ron 1:49:41
Um, but I think that like, well, Lovisa has like, very similar things like, it’s to a much smaller scale and a much more like, personal, like, relatable? Level? Where it’s like, okay, I can like, imagine what that’s like, as opposed to Bitterblue, it’s like, if you legitimately try and imagine what it would be like to have that bad guy as your dad, like, I don’t think anyone actually legitimately can, unless they’re like, the child of like, a dictator, maybe they can? [laugh] But like, the scope of like, Bitterblue’s trauma and problems is just like, insane. Whereas the scope of Lovisa’s trauma and problems is much more relatable. And like, the scenes where, like, Lovisa’s looking over the edge of the hot air balloon or looking off the edge of a cliff and Bitterblue is like, I’m really concerned about her, I’m going to distract her. And then at the end when Lovisa is like, I know Bitterblue was doing that, and I’m glad she did it, because I needed it.
GiannaMarie 1:51:03
That was — yes. I [sigh]- Bitterblue has grown so much. I — [sigh] she was — I was so proud of her when she was like, Okay, I’m just gonna, like, scurry off. She’s like, “do you know anything about feet, my foot is killing me, I need you to look at my foot!” [laughing] And that’s the end of like, the section, it’s like, presumably, Lovisa wandered away from the cliff edge to go check on Bitterblue’s blisters. [laughing] Like, I don’t know her — her confidence. I love it. Probably the moments that got me the most in this were, um, when they’re discuss- Oh, go ahead.
Ron 1:51:50
Another one is when Bitterblue is being held captive. And they come with food. And they put it on the ground in a bowl. And she realizes that they want her to feel like an animal. And she actually handles this very well. She’s like, you know what, this is just an action. It’s supposed to be humiliating, it is humiliating, but ultimately, it’s just something that I have to do. Like.
GiannaMarie 1:52:22
What — she had like, a really nice internal monologue about that. She was saying that, like, everyone she’s ever loved has known humiliation, she can know it too. She’ll be fine.
Ron 1:52:32
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 1:52:33
Umm. That was — Oh, that was. Yeah, that was that was a little heart-wrenching. Um, I do like that — the — the quote from Po has shown up now in three books. It’s every other book, because it was in Graceling, and it was in Bitterblue, and it’s now in this book. Which, when Po is injured at the — like the — mmm maybe two-thirds point of Graceling, um, Katsa really doesn’t want to leave him alone in the mountains, because he’s too injured, while she runs away with Bitterblue. And she’s critiquing all of these, like, plans that he has. And she’s like, [aggressively] well, what are you going to do when soldiers come? Are you going to crawl over there? And he says very coolly, like, “there’s no shame in crawling when one can’t walk.” And Katsa is like, whatever. Like, I know that you’ll survive, I’m so angry about it, goodbye. [both laughing] And then, eight years later!, Bitterblue is on a bridge after a very traumatic experience and she’s completely flat, and she’s like, I need to get — I need to get to shelter. And she’s like, shimmying, and she’s like, it’s okay, Po told me that it’s — that it’s okay to crawl when you can’t walk. It’s okay. And then — then when she can’t walk because of her frostbite, she’s again saying like, it’s okay. “Po told me once that there’s no shame in crawling when one can’t walk.”
Ron 1:54:04
[chuckling]
GiannaMarie 1:54:05
Like, hardcore thinking about the Capitol Crawl? [laughing] Like, for the listeners, the Capitol Crawl was part of, um, civil disobedience that got us the ADA in 1990, where a bunch of people just dragged themselves up the steps to the Capitol Building, without assistive devices, um, so — like, a bunch of very mobily — mobility impaired, like, physically disabled people would be like, carrying an IV while they crawl, agonizing, up the steps. They’re like, Hello, we want ramps! Because, until 1990, disabled people — people who were recognized as disabled by the federal government — were not also recognized as full citizens. That was only 30 years ago. Um, I don’t know, I just, I love — I love the — the applicability of that quote. Um, pretty much aside from my overwhelming pride, and like, calm at all times that I was reading this book was of two moments where I was like, [huge gasp] were when, um, Giddon is trying to explain what Trina does when they’re spying on her. Trina is the Graceling who can find lost things. And out of nowhere — this is the day after Bitterblue — they thought Bitterblue died — Hava goes, “Could she find Bitterblue’s body?” And I was just like, [huge sobbing noise][laughing] like, no tears actually came out of me like they did when I read Bitterblue, but like, it was an emotional faucet of tears. And poor Giddon is like, [laughing] literally crying in the street next to Hava, just like, spurting out all of the tears for me.
Ron 1:55:04
Yeah. See, but if they’d actually tried to do that, she probably would have found Bitterblue!
GiannaMarie 1:55:59
[screaming] YES! Okay. We were also talking about the fact that the mail has to take this long because if Po found out about this, Po came, Po would have solved everything instantly. Like, instantly instantly. [laughing]
Ron 1:56:16
Cuz Po — so Po’s Grace is that he can like, sense all of the things going on around him. Like, he can sense like, basically their outlines and contours and stuff, even if he can’t see it, which is important because he gets blinded —
GiannaMarie 1:56:32
Blind. [laugh]
Ron 1:56:33
But he’s able to pretend not to be blind, because he can sense everything, kind of, um, Daredevil.
GiannaMarie 1:56:38
And he’s concealing the mind-reading part of it. Yes, exactly like radar sense, or Toph’s seismic sense in Avatar.
Ron 1:56:45
Yeah. Um, so he would — first he would be riding in on his boat. And he would be like, I can sense at the bottom of the ocean there’s this giant —
GiannaMarie 1:56:55
There’s a huge creature!
Ron 1:56:56
— thing! Yeah, there’s like this massive creature thing, so I guess that thing is real.
GiannaMarie 1:57:00
And the creature would know that he was thinking about her.
Ron 1:57:03
Hmm.
GiannaMarie 1:57:03
And then they would probably be friends.
Ron 1:57:05
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 1:57:05
And then he would be like, Hmm, I wonder why she’s worried about me taking this Storyworld away. Oh, no! Oh no! It’s the ship! There’s a padlock on it, they were drowned on purpose!
Ron 1:57:17
Yes.
GiannaMarie 1:57:17
And then the moment that he would get there — well, first of all, he would have known where Bitterblue was, like, [laughing] if he had gone, he would have been like, Bitterblue’s in the water, we have to go get her. And they wouldn’t have like, searched the ship and left her behind by accident.
Ron 1:57:30
Yes. But also if he went to so later they go to a like, dinner party —
GiannaMarie 1:57:34
[screams] YES.
Ron 1:57:34
— in the house where Bitterblue’s being held. So he would have known Bitterblue was there, but also he would have known, Hey, why the hell is there a fox — climbing around in the vents —
GiannaMarie 1:57:44
In the walls!
Ron 1:57:44
— and like, spying on people? [laughing]
GiannaMarie 1:57:47
I think he would immediately attract a whole bunch of foxes who are like, Oh, this human reads minds too! He’s friendly! He’s like us!, and he obligingly would agree never to reveal the secrets of foxkind except to Katsa.
Ron 1:58:02
[chuckling]
GiannaMarie 1:58:02
And then he would have nine foxes clinging on him all the time because animals love Po. Lovejoy loves Po. Um where was I going with this? Oh, the other part about that day is that, um, when they leave an amble they have proof of purchase. So they’re like, searched at the end. Like, did you buy something? Because you have to buy something to get out. Do you have a receipt. And Hava’s like, [aggressively] I bought something. And here’s my fake receipt! And Giddon is like, Hava you have money, why are you stealing from Keepish artisans? And Hava says I hate this- . “I wanted it. I hate this place. It killed my sister.” [loud emotive noise] I mean, you know how much I love Hava — like, look at my thread of how many times I mention Hava in the Bitterblue thread. [laughing] I love her… SO much. And the other part where I was like, oh my god, was the fact that she fell into the — into the grenade hole into the cave. And they’re all worried about Lovisa, like, trying to get her up, and — and then Giddon is like, wait wait wait wait wait wait, wasn’t Hava with you?? Where’s Hava? And Lovisa’s like, [weepingly] she fell in! And everyone is like, she’s probably dead. Let’s call her name anyway. And I was like, [emotionally] if Hava dies, I’ll never recover from this.
Ron 1:59:30
Like, I was just like, they’re not gonna kill off Hava, it woulda been like, way more on-page and dramatic if they were gonna kill off Hava. [laughing]
GiannaMarie 1:59:39
[objecting] Archer was not on page. Um. There’s only like, two or three on-page deaths that I can think of in the — in all of Kristin Cashore’s writing, and like, the most impactful one is like, they don’t even know about it for months. And they’re all screaming for Hava, and out of everything, she’s calling for Bitterblue. Bitterblue’s lying on the floor, high as a kite, one ear on the ground. And she’s like, [aggressively] everyone shut up! And everyone’s like, oh, okay, we’re shuttin’ up now. “She’s calling my name.” You know? Everyone listening to this podcast knows that I am so weak for sisters. But like, I’m so weak for Bitterblue and Hava specifically because they didn’t even know about each other until five years ago and like, they’re secret sisters, because Hava doesn’t want anyone to know that she is also Leck’s child, because she doesn’t want anyone to think that she should be in government. So — so they have all of this, like, affection and friendship, but it’s like, all chosen, you know what I mean? Like, they didn’t grow up together, they were both hidden from the king in the castle by their mothers, separately, to protect them. And they never knew about each other. They did not have to be sisters. And they decided to be sisters. And that’s the weakest kind for me.
Ron 2:00:15
[laughing]
GiannaMarie 2:01:28
I mean, you’ve heard me talk about Supergirl. But, like, they didn’t — not have to do — they did not have to have anything to do with each other. But…they do. [pleased giggle] And then, I guess I really love that Lovisa is just calling her “Bitterblue” by the end, and she’s like, [whining] I don’t have time for lunch with you, I have homework. [both laughing] Like, they’re friends now. And now Lovisa is like, going to try to change the laws so silbercows can testify in court, which they should be able to — — as Strayhounds can, in Zorsted. Um, and — like, the silbercows just — [inaudible due to emotional high pitch]
Ron 2:02:07
Also people are like, silbercows make stuff up, but we never saw a silbercow make up anything on page. Yeah.
GiannaMarie 2:02:23
I think that it’s about the Keeper.
Ron 2:02:24
People just didn’t believe them that the Keeper existed, but like, [dismissive] whatever. Um, the — I think another part though, was when, um —
GiannaMarie 2:02:36
I — I did break a little bit at the very end of this book.
Ron 2:02:39
The very end, when — when Nev sits down Lovisa and explains to her how her dad was abusive.
GiannaMarie 2:02:49
[gasp]
Ron 2:02:49
And that like, just because he didn’t do outright things like her mom did, doesn’t mean that he’s a good person and doesn’t mean that she has to defend him. And like, Lovisa gets it?
GiannaMarie 2:03:05
[sigh] Um, let me — it was an extremely good little bit. So this is on 501. “‘I’ve been thinking about my father,’ she said. ‘About how he used to protect me.’ ‘How did he used to protect you?’ Lovisa shrugged. ‘My mother would have these rages. I would run to my father, knock on his library door. He would sit me in his favorite chair, fuss over me, order me some tea or something nice to eat. If my mother came looking for me, he would hold her off at the door, telling her he was handling it. It was nice. It was one of the reasons I’ve always felt like my care of my little brothers is inadequate. I never held my mother off from them.’ Nev sat up straight, something hard in her face. Lovisa shrank, certain Nev was angry at her for not protecting her brothers better. ‘Lovisa,’ Nev said, ‘do you understand that it was never your job to stop your mother from hurting your f-your brothers? That was the job of your father.’ This seemed wrong to Lovisa, for she was big. Her brothers were little. The big protected the little. ‘It was my job too,’ she said. ‘With your father there?’ said Nev. ‘As big as he was, the man that he was. I’ve seen him, Lovisa. He would leave you to defend your brothers?’ ‘It’s not that simple,’ Lovisa said. ‘My mother was his wife. He had obligations to her.’ ‘After you would spend that time in your father’s library,’ Nev said. ‘When you were little. What happened next?’ ‘What do you mean?’ ‘Well, did your mother forgive you?’ ‘No,’ Lovisa said. ‘Of course not. We would come out for dinner. She would wait for my dinner to be served. Then before I could eat it, she would take me away from the table and put me upstairs in this room in the attic where she took us for punishments,’” — which is where they kept Bitterblue, for weeks — “‘And your father would sit at the table,’ Nev said. ‘And watch you go?’ ‘Yes,’ Lovisa said, startled by the question. ‘But he wasn’t the one I’d crossed. It was my mother, you understand?’ At the sudden, soft sorrow in Nev’s face, Lovisa went quiet, thinking. Then, gradually, inconsolably sad. ‘Oh,’ Lovisa said. ‘I see.’” I’m glad that she and Katu hug after his — five months of solitary because Lovisa is a woman who needs hugs.
Ron 2:05:55
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 2:05:55
WE DIDN’T TALK ABOUT THE PIG!
Ron 2:05:56
Also, she has — I was gonna say, she has like, an ESA by the end.
GiannaMarie 2:06:00
[squeaking]
Ron 2:06:00
Literally, like, literally, one of the other characters might as well call it an ESA, Nev might as well call it an ESA, to her because she’s like, you need this thing to take care of and make you feel good. Um, but basically, she goes off and and at one point she’s like, being so prissy about being like, not in her well-kept life that —
GiannaMarie 2:06:23
Bitterblue is like —
Ron 2:06:23
— Bitterblue gets, like, annoyed at her, and is like, you’re trying to out-anob a queen! [laughing] Because Bitterblue’s, like, just dealing with it. But so then finally, she takes a turn and she just starts to enjoy being out in like, the middle of nowhere, and goes to a call and sees pigs being born. And then the runt is just going to be like, tossed aside by — [knowingly] Was he really? Or did they just see that she loved him? I mean, it would be pretty normal for them not to want the runt, because the runt would probably die anyway unless you put in a ton of attention, to like, take care of it.
GiannaMarie 2:07:03
Literally, he was attached to her torso. I feel like, they completely were like, Oh, we don’t want that one, he’s too small. And she was like, Okay, he’s mine.
Ron 2:07:13
[laughing]
GiannaMarie 2:07:16
She puts diapers on him because she’s feeding him milk all the time.
Ron 2:07:19
Also the reason that one got handed to her is because it wasn’t doing well. And it needed to be kept warm.
GiannaMarie 2:07:27
That’s true. Yes, that is true, I guess. I thought it was just a random piglet he picked because she was looking so helpless.
Ron 2:07:35
[chuckling]
GiannaMarie 2:07:37
Um, yeah, so she has a pet piglet at the end; her brothers are enchanted; the piglet gets lost in one of Adventure’s vents in the walls and gets super confused. [laughing]
Ron 2:07:49
And they find the pig in there, and they’re like wow, this pig must be a genius!
GiannaMarie 2:07:52
[laughing] It’s actually Adventure who’s the genius. Um, I promise I’ve already saved like, five pictures of baby-baby piglets to my phone. I promised when we put out this episode, I will bless the timeline with adorable piglet photos.
Ron 2:08:11
[laughing]
GiannaMarie 2:08:12
Um, yeah, I think — the more I think about Winterkeep the more I like it, but it still didn’t like, destroy me. Maybe it will over time. Maybe it’s a slow burn destruction. It is just — it just gives me incredible peace and pride.
Ron 2:08:34
Also, maybe this year has already destroyed you. And instead you’re looking at it as a comfort instead of as an extra thing. [laugh] Anyway-
GiannaMarie 2:08:47
[dramatic] Maybe I wanted to be destroyed. I definitely expected to be destroyed, but also there’s — I don’t know. It just hit me different than the other books.
Annaliese 2:09:04
But anyway -
GiannaMarie 2:09:05
I think that wraps it up. You’ll have to read to discover the kittens.
Ron 2:09:08
Yeah, there’s a lot more that we could say, but let’s not, because I want to eat my dinner.
GiannaMarie 2:09:14
I think Kristin teased about kittens in the — in the speech I saw — not speech, like, the interview I saw her, like, she teased about that and I like, didn’t remember it until we got to that point. [laughing] Um, but I do love that, uh, Bitterblue’s characteristic favorite curse is expanded on in such a way it pleases me. My mother uses the curse “balls” frequently because I read her Bitterblue in 2012. She added it into her — her lexicon of curse words. And it was like, her favorite for ages. [laughing]
Ron 2:09:52
Anyway, um, wrapping up, so if you liked Winterkeep, then you should obviously read the rest of the, like, Graceling universe series.
GiannaMarie 2:10:04
And definitely Jane, Unlimited. So much of the fox stuff is like Jane, Unlimited.
Ron 2:10:11
But if we’re recommending something that’s not written literally by the same author, I think in some ways this book definitely has some commonalities with Belle Révolte, like, with uncovering mysteries and like, having different points of view and politics playing a heavy role. And like, the thing that really made me think of it is that there is a question of like, power and relationship dynamics Belle Révolte, and also in this, so that’s the main thing that it made me think about, but generally if you like politicky high fantasy, a little bit queer, then Belle Révolte. Belle Révolte is more queer than this book. There’s like, two women who are in love who kill a evil ruler together, beheading. But anyway —
GiannaMarie 2:11:17
There’s a trans boy, in love.
Ron 2:11:21
Yes.
GiannaMarie 2:11:22
I’m almost tempted to recommend The Winter Place by Alex Yates? Because it’s a snowy, sad family story? Like, a little bit similar vibe at some times, but honestly I just… Kristin Cashore stuff. [both laugh] This is — I — I was very indignant that no one was including Jane, Unlimited in their like, reading to prepare for — well, first of all, I’m pretty sure that I’m the only person on Twitter who finished the #GracelingReadalong. But um, I also read Jane, Unlimited, because I wanted to be like, fresh on all of her works, and I’m very glad that I did, because I felt the influence of Jane, Unlimited strongly. So I — I mean like obviously you should read the Graceling books, if you want to know about the characters, but like — like, a lot of the tone from parts of Jane, Unlimited is similar. Um, yeah. Yeah, I highly recommend Jane, Unlimited. Also! Because I’m not convinced that Jane, Unlimited is not in this universe! Because it says “the known world” on the map, but there’s like a landmass below the Dells, and Skye and Saf are on a trip to see if there’s like, a northern passage to Lienid, and I’m like, maybe they just find Zorsted? Like [laugh] — there’s — or — or the continents, like, the other nations that in the world that Zorsted is a part of, like, I’m — I feel like it probably not, but like, it’s a hi- it’s a possibility? That the world that they go through into the painting in Jane, Unlimited is part of the unknown world? In this universe.
Ron 2:13:23
Mm-hmm.
GiannaMarie 2:13:23
I don’t know I just I think about these two sailor Lienid and boyfriends coming upon Zorsted and they immediately befriend all the Strayhounds, that’s what I’ve been thinking about all day.
Ron 2:13:34
[chuckling]
GiannaMarie 2:13:36
Also because silbercows remind me of seabears so. Sing ho for the life of a silbercow?
Ron 2:13:43
Silbercows made me think of — okay, you know what? Another recommendation: Percy Jackson, just because silbercows reminded me of —
GiannaMarie 2:13:51
Bessie?
Ron 2:13:51
— hippocampi.
GiannaMarie 2:13:52
Oh. [laughing]
Ron 2:13:52
Yeah.
GiannaMarie 2:13:58
Okay, I think that that’s everything. That was — it’s gonna be — it’s gonna be different going back to reading other books that aren’t Winterkeep. [both laughing] I haven’t even been able to like, read comics on my phone this week. It’s just been Winterkeep.
Ron 2:14:18
But! You can put Winterkeep on your Goodreads twice.
GiannaMarie 2:14:22
Oh, you’re right, I can! I can.
Ron 2:14:24
So that’s 1000 pages towards your end of the year reading count.
GiannaMarie 2:14:32
[laughing] I told y’all that I would meet you in a post-Winterkeep world, and that means that I am very proud and very happy.
Ron 2:14:42
Bye.
GiannaMarie 2:14:44
Bye everyone. See you in two weeks!
Annaliese 2:14:47
Hello, everyone, thank you for listening to this week’s episode of Something Old, Something New, I hope you enjoyed it. If you’d like to contact us on social media, our Instagram is @some_old_some_debut, and our Twitter is @debutold. The song that I would like to recommend to you guys this week is “Kings & Queens” by Ava Max. And as usual, that song will be on our music reccs playlist on Spotify, which you can find by going to our Twitter and clicking the link in our bio. Also, we now have transcripts available. If you would like to read a transcript of this episode, it will be available later this week. And if you would like to read a transcript of any other episode, they will be available on Medium which you can also find by clicking the link in any of our social media bios. That’s it for this week, stay safe and healthy, and we’ll see you in two weeks for a new episode. Bye!
